Group A Rover 3500 SD1/Vitesse - History & Whereabouts

[terence]

That is the second car out of the Carter Collection.Bought from Brian.

[KA]

Originally Posted by DPUZEY

Chassis 014 was in Belgium in '87 & '88 as it did the Spa 24 hrs. So the car that Brian Chatfield raced could be 018, this asumes that 020 was still with Kaj & Eva Bornebusch in Sweden!

I think you've just answered a question I was just about to ask!. So 020 was the car that went to Kaj Bornebusch in Sweden?

If so, that again points to Chatfield's car being 018, as the Chatfield and Bornebusch cars must be different chassis. Both cars were being actively raced in the 1987/8 period after being sold off by TWR, Chatfield using his former Bastos car in Modsaloons and Thundersaloons in 1987/8, as well as a few 1987 BTCC rounds...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9000946...in/photostream

...while Bornebusch ran his white car in the Swedish series (and the Anderstorp ETCC round?) in 1987, before moving on to an RS500 for 1988, and handing the Rover on to daughter Eva.
http://www.teambild.se/index.search.php?sid=404&img=1
http://www.teambild.se/index.search.php?sid=404&img=3
http://www.teambild.se/index.search.php?sid=405&img=5
Bornebusch Senior did most of the ETCC season in 1988 with his new RS500, sharing with Ulf Larsson, while both cars were raced at home in Sweden (the RS500 can be seen behind the Rover in one of the pics I linked) by both Eva and Larsson- Eva also appearing with the SD1 at the Nogaro ETCC round at the end of the season.

Another question- Kevin Eaton's car used in Modsaloons around 1989/90. IIRC there was a suggestion earlier in the thread that this might also be 020- so did the Bornebusch car return to the UK?
Kaj Bornebusch certainly visited the UK a couple of times early in 1989, as he did the first couple of BTCC rounds and the Donington ETCC race in his RS500...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9000946...in/photostream

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by KA

I think you've just answered a question I was just about to ask!. So 020 was the car that went to Kaj Bornebusch in Sweden?

If so, that again points to Chatfield's car being 018, as the Chatfield and Bornebusch cars must be different chassis. Both cars were being actively raced in the 1987/8 period after being sold off by TWR, Chatfield using his former Bastos car in Modsaloons and Thundersaloons in 1987/8, as well as a few 1987 BTCC rounds...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9000946...in/photostream

...while Bornebusch ran his white car in the Swedish series (and the Anderstorp ETCC round?) in 1987, before moving on to an RS500 for 1988, and handing the Rover on to daughter Eva.
http://www.teambild.se/index.search.php?sid=404&img=1
http://www.teambild.se/index.search.php?sid=404&img=3
http://www.teambild.se/index.search.php?sid=405&img=5
Bornebusch Senior did most of the ETCC season in 1988 with his new RS500, sharing with Ulf Larsson, while both cars were raced at home in Sweden (the RS500 can be seen behind the Rover in one of the pics I linked) by both Eva and Larsson- Eva also appearing with the SD1 at the Nogaro ETCC round at the end of the season.

Another question- Kevin Eaton's car used in Modsaloons around 1989/90. IIRC there was a suggestion earlier in the thread that this might also be 020- so did the Bornebusch car return to the UK?
Kaj Bornebusch certainly visited the UK a couple of times early in 1989, as he did the first couple of BTCC rounds and the Donington ETCC race in his RS500...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9000946...in/photostream

Kevin Eaton's car wasn't the old Bornebush one, it was ex-Bastos, I think bought directly from TWR.
I'm also sure that as well as driving the RS500 at Donington, Kaj also co-drove the Rover with his daughter too!

[ken clarke]

Kevin Eatons car was chassis no 020, From Kevin it went to Arthur Carter then on to Surrey collector. Rebuilt by me in 2005/6.

[KA]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

Kevin Eatons car was chassis no 020, From Kevin it went to Arthur Carter then on to Surrey collector. Rebuilt by me in 2005/6.

Thanks for confirming that Ken- do you know whether Kevin bought it directly from TWR, or if it had any other owners/race history in-between? I'm particularly trying to figure out which car went to Bornebusch in Sweden...

I remember Kevin Eaton competing in the BTCC in 1987/8, but that was with the ex-Graham Goode Nissan Bluebird Turbo and a Corolla, suggesting that he may not have had the Rover at this time? Oddly enough, although he was a fairly 'local' driver to me at the time (Leicestershire-based IIRC), I somehow very rarely managed to see him race, and certainly don't ever recall seeing him when he had the Rover...

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by corliss

Hi again, Car in Holland Definately has correct chassis plate, 001, all interior correct, still has air jack mounting posts, has obviously had quite a lot of racing judging by dents and scrapes underneath, car was in a showroom when i saw it and i wasnt allowed to start scraping any paint off to see what other colours were underneath, it is basically just the shell left from competition days, owner thought it had been a French Marlboro car at one time which sounds right for 001, I will try to re-establish contact and see what i can learn.
GrpA replica will be finished soon, with luck, would be nice to take it out someday before it is put up for sale, will prob be sold into Europe for Post Historic and Regularity rallies
Skip

This is the car I now own, it is Chassis no 002, the Steve Soper Hepolite car.

[chunterer]

If the Bornebusch's raced the car in 1988/89, an it is the 020 that Eaton owned he can't have bought it until at least 1989/90?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunterer

If the Bornebusch's raced the car in 1988/89, an it is the 020 that Eaton owned he can't have bought it until at least 1989/90?

But I'm sure that the car was in Bastos colours when Kevin bought it. (Surely, this couldn't have been a cynical re-spray to increase the value???)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

But I'm sure that the car was in Bastos colours when Kevin bought it. (Surely, this couldn't have been a cynical re-spray to increase the value???)

Who knows......

However, when the Bornebusch's had it, it was white, when Kevin Eaton ran it, it was also white?

If what he bought was in Bastos colours when he bought it, maybe it was another car after all then?

However, VIVA do you recall when exactly Eaton bought the car? if he bought it in 1987 or 1988 (therefore it couldn't be the Bornebusch one), I'm wondering if the original intention was to run it in the BTCC?

Originally Posted by DPUZEY

When did the homologation for the Vitesse run out?

Also I am still looking for pictures of Marc Duez's works SD1 rally car on the 1984 Bianchi Rally.

Think it was 1988 Dave, that was certainly the last year the model in the BTCC, although it did race in other series in 1989 and 90...but that may have been under dispensation?

I suspect Ken will answer that correctly!

Didn't the Capri 3.0 race as homologated until 1986, 4 years after the factory stopped production of that model? Was there a definite period of grace that a car could race on under once a car was out of homologation or something?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Didn't the Capri 3.0 race as homologated until 1986, 4 years after the factory stopped production of that model? Was there a definite period of grace that a car could race on under once a car was out of homologation or something?

The 3.0s was group 1, the 2.8i was Group A. Two different homologation certs as far as I recall.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Think it was 1988 Dave, that was certainly the last year the model in the BTCC, although it did race in other series in 1989 and 90...but that may have been under dispensation?

I suspect Ken will answer that correctly!

Didn't the Capri 3.0 race as homologated until 1986, 4 years after the factory stopped production of that model? Was there a definite period of grace that a car could race on under once a car was out of homologation or something?

I think the ex-CS-H/Tim Slako Rover made a couple of ATCC appearances as late as 1989 in Geoff Herbert's ownership. Dennis Leech was the last to run a Rover in the BTCC in 1988, before moving to an RS500 for '89

IIRC the last Capri appearances in the BTCC were by Brian Chatfield in '86, but as Peter says, there were separate homologation for the 3.0S and 2.8 Injection, and the 3.0 was originally a Group 1 homologation. From vague memory (and my memory is better on this in a rallying context) some pre-82 Group 1/2/4 homologations were 'grandfathered' by some means into Groups A & B, but only for a limited period of time.
I think but won't swear that Group A homologations continued to be valid for a fixed number of years after the end of production

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Who knows......

However, when the Bornebusch's had it, it was white, when Kevin Eaton ran it, it was also white?

If what he bought was in Bastos colours when he bought it, maybe it was another car after all then?

However, VIVA do you recall when exactly Eaton bought the car? if he bought it in 1987 or 1988 (therefore it couldn't be the Bornebusch one), I'm wondering if the original intention was to run it in the BTCC?

Think it was 1988 Dave, that was certainly the last year the model in the BTCC, although it did race in other series in 1989 and 90...but that may have been under dispensation?

I suspect Ken will answer that correctly!

Didn't the Capri 3.0 race as homologated until 1986, 4 years after the factory stopped production of that model? Was there a definite period of grace that a car could race on under once a car was out of homologation or something?

To be honest, I can't remember exactly when Kevin bought the Rover. My initial thoughts are that it must have been 1988 because he was not at all impressed/excited with the Corolla. Having said that, I'm also sure that i remember him buying the car to run in Modsaloons, meaning it wasn't eligible for the BTCC so that would make it 1989...

[terence]

If it helps,the Bornebusch White Car,was never touched/repainted when Carter bought it. This was after the first car he bought,the JLS car.

[Al Weyman]

If any of you SD1 nuts fancy a ride around Snetterton in November a guy is organising a charity pay for a ride event and my friend Gerry Cain who owns a superb version (not ex-works but probably a lot superior) is planning taking his car with the Bastos clone paint job featured in the Holden Commadore thread in the YouTube link I posted. Gerry is a great driver and it will be a nice opportunity to get a feel what these cars are like on the circuit and will raise a bit for charity. I intend to try to bring a car as well.

[KA]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

To be honest, I can't remember exactly when Kevin bought the Rover. My initial thoughts are that it must have been 1988 because he was not at all impressed/excited with the Corolla. Having said that, I'm also sure that i remember him buying the car to run in Modsaloons, meaning it wasn't eligible for the BTCC so that would make it 1989...

The pic I posted a link to was dated 1989.
I wonder if it wasn't so much a case of the Rover not being eligible for the BTCC, as just no longer competitive.
Dennis Leech certainly hadn't had much luck in 1988 (IIRC he'd managed to qualify well up the grid at Thruxton, but otherwise he was struggling to get into the top 10-15) with a dozen RS500s to contend with, and in '89 it would have been even more of an uphill struggle for anyone running one of the 'old generation' big class cars.
On the other hand, the Rover would have been pretty much a sure frontrunner in Modsaloons....

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by terence bower

If it helps,the Bornebusch White Car,was never touched/repainted when Carter bought it. This was after the first car he bought,the JLS car.

When we collected ch no TWR 020 from Arthur Carter it was white. However when I stripped it, underneath the rear quarter window rubbers was grey & red paint, stripes. so someone must have painted it whitewithout removing the rear quarter windows.

Homologation had a run out period, I cannot recall whether it was 4 or 5 years after the cessation of production.

[ken clarke]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Exciting behind the scenes pictures there. I picked this one out to suggest it was taken at Brno, mainly because of the Skoda RS Coupé parked next to it. Any off at the Czech circuit would likely cause damage.

Jesper

I believe this car is TWR 008, damaged at Donington by steve Soper in practice. This car was reshelled overnight. The pictures were taken back at Kidlington, the Skoda was owned by one of the Rover rally mechanics.

[KA]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

When we collected ch no TWR 020 from Arthur Carter it was white. However when I stripped it, underneath the rear quarter window rubbers was grey & red paint, stripes. so someone must have painted it white without removing the rear quarter windows.

Homologation had a run out period, I cannot recall whether it was 4 or 5 years after the cessation of production.

White with red & grey stripes sounds like the colours Kevin Eaton ran it in
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9000946...in/photostream

Given what Terence said about it never being repainted during the Arthur Carter ownership, sounds like it got a respray in plain white before it went to him

Thanks for confirming the existance of a run-out period on homologations. Somewhere I've got old copies of Rally Sport magazine from the 80's, which periodically published lists of all current Group A/B/N homologations, with their expiry dates- if I can find one, it might specify what the run out period was

[KA]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

I believe this car is TWR 008, damaged at Donington by steve Soper in practice. This car was reshelled overnight. The pictures were taken back at Kidlington, the Skoda was owned by one of the Rover rally mechanics.

Thanks Ken- From memory, we'd previously speculated whether a spare car was available and used after the Soper practice shunt.

Looking at pics of the #6 car in the race, it looks as if the reshell used the shell from one of the older cars (if I remember correctly what you'd said about black interiors in the early cars, white in the later ones etc).
Would there have beeen one already painted up in Bastos colours as a spare, test hack or show car, or was there some frantic overnight paintspraying involved? Looking closely at the pics of #6, the drivers' names seem to be absent from the front wings

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...57627347703055
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...in/photostream

[terence]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

When we collected ch no TWR 020 from Arthur Carter it was white. However when I stripped it, underneath the rear quarter window rubbers was grey & red paint, stripes. so someone must have painted it whitewithout removing the rear quarter windows.

.

Certainly not how things were done whilst I was in charge of the place then!.

I'm just about to scan a relevant photo of the JLS car before it was repainted.

[terence]

Hope these are of use,before and after.

[KA]

Originally Posted by ken clarke

I believe this car is TWR 008, damaged at Donington by steve Soper in practice. This car was reshelled overnight. The pictures were taken back at Kidlington, the Skoda was owned by one of the Rover rally mechanics.

It's taken me several hours to spot something significant there Ken- you said you believe this was 008- and therefore one of the earlier (1984) cars, rather than the new-built 1985 Bastos cars.

Just looked back at the chassis list Dave Puzey posted a while back,
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1250
and it mentions 007 (the ex-Gitanes car) seeing service as an early 1985 Bastos car, as well as appearing at Spa in '86.
When I originally read Dave's list, I realised that 007 had seen service as a Bastos car (IIRC we'd speculated about this on the thread) but I hadn't noticed that 008 did as well, until you just mentioned it!

So what mix of 'old' and 'new' cars were the team running in the early part of the season?

[KA]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Hope these are of use,before and after.

Thanks for those- think this is 005, the ex-Schlesser Marlboro car that's now in NZ?

[DPUZEY]

Going back to the picture of the crashed #6 car. It has a white roll cage with a bend in the cage just above the bottom of the windscreen. This is the style of the later Matter cages which on TWR cars were white. The #6 car in the race at Donnington I believe to be chassis #8 which was also a Bastos car in 1985 and a 'press car' as I think Chris Harvey drove it in an aricle for 'Fast Car' magazine. From what I can work out the only early car with a Gartrac steel cage that has the inside painted white is chassis #7.

I think the crashed car is possible chassis # 16 as it is a front end crash, chassis #17 was a rear end crash and was no 1 at Zolder.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by KA

Thanks for confirming the existance of a run-out period on homologations. Somewhere I've got old copies of Rally Sport magazine from the 80's, which periodically published lists of all current Group A/B/N homologations, with their expiry dates- if I can find one, it might specify what the run out period was

The expiery period was five years, always ending on the 31st December. It also had a wording going something like "when production goes under a 1,000 cars within a 12 month period the five year expiery period beginns". In most cases I think it was a matter of production seizing and the homologated car had another five years of competition ahead. Sometime during the 1990s this was extended to eight years and the 5,000 cars produced within 12 months for homologation was halfed to 2,500 cars.

Jesper