Sports Sedans - Page 6

mountainstar · 22 May 2006, 04:19 (Ref:1615967)

Sports sedans seem to be an orphan on the motor racing landscape. What about having a formula with almost no rules? Any body, engine or transmission, car must be no longer than x, no wider than y, no lower than x. That'll make it interesting

Peter Nightingale · 23 May 2006, 01:42 (Ref:1616744)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Sports sedans seem to be an orphan on the motor racing landscape. What about having a formula with almost no rules? Any body, engine or transmission, car must be no longer than x, no wider than y, no lower than x. That'll make it interesting

Leave the regs as they are.............

RichC · 23 May 2006, 03:41 (Ref:1616769)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Nightingale

Leave the regs as they are.............

Why Peter? And die a complete death? Why not look to changing some to allow todays technology and give some of the 700hp rice burners with multi-valves a go? Even multi-valve V8's.

DAVID PATERSON · 23 May 2006, 03:46 (Ref:1616773)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Why Peter? And die a complete death? Why not look to changing some to allow todays technology and give some of the 700hp rice burners with multi-valves a go? Even multi-valve V8's.

But those engines are already eligible.............

RichC · 23 May 2006, 07:27 (Ref:1616840)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

But those engines are already eligible.............

Err, no they aren't.

johnh875 · 24 May 2006, 02:21 (Ref:1617566)

In thinking I’ll have a look on the net to see if turbo engines are allowed, and if so what equivalence ratios apply, I found that sports sedans are not listed on the “Categories” page of the Cams website… Says a fair bit doesn’t it, and is not helpful to the health of the category.

On the Vic ASSA website there was only the reference to 6L and rotary engines, with a mention of the U/2L class 4 & 6cyl engines.

So are turbos allowed and if so what size engine? Similarly ohc /4 valve engines?

DAVID PATERSON · 24 May 2006, 02:53 (Ref:1617575)

Well I hope they're allowed, because there are plenty of them running...............

Peter Nightingale · 24 May 2006, 03:02 (Ref:1617577)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Well I hope they're allowed, because there are plenty of them running...............

Provided they are FIA Homologated for GROUP 2 .........TOURING CARS.....

johnh875 · 24 May 2006, 04:15 (Ref:1617592)

David are you referring to turbos or over 2L multi cam/valve engines? I understand the 6L limit only applies to ohv V8s, I was wondering about equivalence ratios for the other engine types - eg depending on any boost restriction, a 3:1 turbo equivalency factor would be in the ballpark.

I know the bodyshell must be a sedan/touring car, but is there any engine homologation required Peter?

Peter Nightingale · 24 May 2006, 04:27 (Ref:1617595)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnh875

David are you referring to turbos or over 2L multi cam/valve engines? I understand the 6L limit only applies to ohv V8s, I was wondering about equivalence ratios for the other engine types - eg depending on any boost restriction, a 3:1 turbo equivalency factor would be in the ballpark.

I know the bodyshell must be a sedan/touring car, but is there any engine homologation required Peter?

I must admit i am not really sure, a bit more research needed i think ,? Regards.......

Robert Ryan · 24 May 2006, 05:16 (Ref:1617600)

It was on the old ASSA site, the various engines allowed and their restrictions. I KNOW turbo rotaries are not allowed

Robert Ryan · 24 May 2006, 06:29 (Ref:1617607)

Quote:

I found that sports sedans are not listed on the “Categories” page of the Cams website… Says a fair bit doesn’t it, and is not helpful to the health of the category.

I noticed that as well. I hope Falcon EL realises that others also feel, that SS are not long for this world at a National Level, unless something is done.

RichC · 24 May 2006, 06:31 (Ref:1617610)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

It was on the old ASSA site, the various engines allowed and their restrictions. I KNOW turbo rotaries are not allowed

Sorry Robert, you are wrong. Turbo rotaries are allowed. There is a multiplication factor of 1.7 for swept area to equate to piston engines, plus 1.5 for turbo engines. So a 13B is in 6litre and a 20B normally aspirated is 4.5 litre. A 20B if turboed would make 6.3 litre so does not qualify. There are plenty of 13B turbo's running in Vic.

Importantly has anybody got pics of Dean Randle's big crash at Phillip Isalnd at the weekend?

RichC · 24 May 2006, 06:34 (Ref:1617611)

Robert we all hope that something is done at National level. But I feel they will survive as no other category has been "sacked" by CAMS, so why would S/S's?

RichC · 24 May 2006, 06:38 (Ref:1617612)

On the rotary turbo thing again Robert, Kim Ledger from WA, builder of some of the best rotary motors ever,(I can confirm that) has always said that a 12A turbo which stays under 2 litre would be unbeatable as it develops as much hp as a 13B. I shoulda, coulda, woulda, didn't!

Robert Ryan · 24 May 2006, 06:50 (Ref:1617616)

My problem with the rotaries was a lack of torque. Turbo Lag with the 4 cylinder engines and seemingly not much bottom end torque, allowed the 6 Litre Chevs to dominate. Maybe the engine equivalency formula needs to be looked at again?
I know some turbo's rotaries were banned, so yes I guess the 20B's were the ones.

Peter Nightingale · 24 May 2006, 07:29 (Ref:1617628)

Please do not get me going on turbo ROTARIES.

Chucky · 24 May 2006, 08:19 (Ref:1617671)

Are you still here?

Robert Ryan · 24 May 2006, 08:21 (Ref:1617673)

Quote:

Please do not get me going on turbo ROTARIES.

What is your beef?

Silver 3 · 24 May 2006, 08:42 (Ref:1617698)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Robert we all hope that something is done at National level. But I feel they will survive as no other category has been "sacked" by CAMS, so why would S/S's?

Do not believe that will not happen.Cams will remove "National" status and then you do have a problem. A lot of potential program spots dissappear.As am observer of the catergory it seems to me that the Cams dance needs to cease and the dog needs to do the wagging of the tail.Equally the internal house needs to be put in order and get cars on the track.

Chucky · 24 May 2006, 08:52 (Ref:1617710)

First F400, next Sports Sedans.

Muuuhhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaahhaa...............

FalconEL · 25 May 2006, 22:45 (Ref:1619084)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

I noticed that as well. I hope Falcon EL realises that others also feel, that SS are not long for this world at a National Level, unless something is done.

FalconEL does realise that the only thing required to boost the status of the category is a field of 20+ starters at each National Round. The more starters you have will increase the potential for good, fast, competitive racing.

How to achieve a consistent field of 20 + cars at each round requires a big $$$$ investment by competitors and unfortunately, I do not have the answer to this problem. I will say however that since last year there has been increased interest in the National category by many competitors, particularly in QLD. Unfortunately, our interest up here has not translated into getting more State Level support of National Rounds down at Wakefield for Round 1, or PI for Round 2.

I take note that the majority of categories at the CAMS National Round at PI were quite poorly supported (including F3 which has been touted by most as the next BIG THING for open wheelers in Australia - I mean 13 odd cars with a time disparity of some 20 odd second between fastest and slowest........... what sort of joke is that......) The Production Car categories at both CAMS and AASA levels have to be the greatest farce I've ever seen, I mean how many of us would even bother walking across the road to watch these 10 car fields....... The only reason it survives is because the CAMS President is a stakeholder in the deal......

This will be my last post on this topic as I am sick to death of having to defend my category and the fact that most of my fellow competitors simply do not have the funds to mount a full Series campaign, against the nay-sayers and negativity towards the current situation.

Silver 3 · 25 May 2006, 23:43 (Ref:1619104)

EL- it is typical attitude of those that do not have an investment in race car catergory that seem to think the money to run a race cars grows on trees.Spend your time telling the people tha are spending there hard earned to participate what they should be doing.S/S problem is that the cost of following a National series is high and that other catergoties competing for the competitors are more attractive.The reasons really do not matter -- to acknowledge the fact does.Cams are heavily complicit in the problems-- they have no interest in seeing S/S stay a National series. No manufacturer for Cams to get excited about getting into bed with. Despite the speed of the cars it may well be more appropriate if the catergory sought to rebuild it's respective state based series and co-ordinate a well attended once or twice a year collective get together.Rebuild nimbers of ALL types of existing cars and generate some confidence and excitement back into the class.Limping on as it is will sign the class's own death warrant.

DAVID PATERSON · 26 May 2006, 02:22 (Ref:1619146)

Silver, I think you're on the right track. If there isn't enough support for a National series, don't have one. Concentrate on rebuilding each Satet Series and then all egt together once or twice a year for a "Nationals". It works perfectly well for FVee, HQs and ImProd.

Peter Nightingale · 26 May 2006, 04:18 (Ref:1619183)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Silver, I think you're on the right track. If there isn't enough support for a National series, don't have one. Concentrate on rebuilding each Satet Series and then all egt together once or twice a year for a "Nationals". It works perfectly well for FVee, HQs and ImProd.

Absolutely a brilliant idea.........

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