The Current State of IndyCar

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

America is now NASCAR country. It used to be Indycar and NASCAR country. You watched Unser, you turned over to Earnhardt.

Indycar subdivided, cut off its fans, NASCAR swooped them up and they just had no interest in coming back now matter what marketing trick the IRL went with. I guess the motorsport landscape has changed. F1 can be very sterile but its wealthy and carries authority and you can pull in an audience with that.

Anyway - Hinchcliffe did draw in a sponsor to replace GoDaddy so he's on the grid for next year.

Everything changes and I think the irl made a critical mistake with their split in 1996 in terms of their reasoning of trying to recapture an era from decades before with American sprint and midget drivers, American cars and engines and exclusively oval tracks. That era of open wheel racing was never popular with the public outside of Indiana anyways. By 1996 that world had already long moved on and was dead by then with CART fixing those issues in the late 1970's. Now after all that has transpired in two decades with the destruction of their business and the flailing around they do now, the ship has sailed.

There is no quick fix, no gimmick, no schedule change or similar thing that will fix the problem. It is a core series of fundamental problems that polishing the turd will not fix.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Salamus

I really like your post. I'll expand on this section if you don't mind.

There are two types of non-race fans, 1) car people and 2) the others.
1) I have a bunch of friends who watch shows like Top Gear and know a reasonable amount about cars but don't watch motorsport. I introduced one of my friends to the ALMS and now he watches almost every race because he likes the GT classes. Another one of my friends began to like IndyCars because of the speed. These kinds of people are the easiest to expose to motorsport because they already like cars in general.

2) The others are people who show no interest in cars and sports, or show interest in other sports. Sadly, it's really hard to convince these people to watch motorsport (I've tried). They commonly reply with "the races are too long", "nothing is happening", "they are just cars going around in circles". These people are definitely a lost cause. On the other hand, celebrities like Patrick Dempsey, may bring in some new faces, but I doubt a celebrity would enter IndyCar. Oh well, you can't please everyone.

Part of the issue in attracting car people is that to the vast majority, the new DW12 cars are slow, ugly, and not super sexy bleeding edge like F1 or LMP1. IMO this is why the ALMS has attracted the hard core car guys. The fact there is more than one engine helps me get past the spec car element in Indycar. As a fan of Indycar it frustrates me no one is watching as the racing the past 2 seasons has been fantastic, and the depth of talent on the grid is great. A handful of ride buyers aren't the issue, all racing has that now - F1, sportscars, and Indycar.

Sadly, with ratings where they are, there just isn't enough money to open up the rules as most of us would like. This keeps those who are "car guys" away. The casual fan will NASCAR for the crashes and the manufactured show. They aren't watching racing because they enjoy racing, they're watching the soap opera IMO. The core Indycar fan base is aging and the series is at a loss on how to become cool, sexy, and relevant to a younger demographic.

[Paradise City]

For Indycar to be in the game, the car they roll out needs to be iconic. It needs to be the type of mean beast the kids want to put on their bedroom wall. No child puts a junior single seater single-make car, no matter how good the racing is, on their bedroom wall.

I got engaged in Indycar because the cars seemed even meaner than F1 and following on from that the stature of the events was there as well. This was despite the fact that behind the scenes, the cars were considerably cheaper and the technology was more agricultural. Didn't matter to me.

If, on the other otherhand, as a new fan I switched onto these chubby clones for the first time, I would've switched over regardless of the racing. The cars just give off the junior single seater vibe; an unimportant race series.

It's a pity because these cars do race and weigh in at a good standard in safety - which is hard to do - but the looks are so underwhelming; it's just not the mark of a premier series. One might think getting the aesthetics right would be the easy part but it's the important part if Indycar wants to reclaim any of its previous space in the American public consciousness. Now they are stuck in a vicious circle that needs to be broken at some point.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

For Indycar to be in the game, the car they roll out needs to be iconic. It needs to be the type of mean beast the kids want to put on their bedroom wall. No child puts a junior single seater single-make car, no matter how good the racing is, on their bedroom wall.

I got engaged in Indycar because the cars seemed even meaner than F1 and following on from that the stature of the events was there as well. This was despite the fact that behind the scenes, the cars were considerably cheaper and the technology was more agricultural. Didn't matter to me.

If, on the other otherhand, as a new fan I switched onto these chubby clones for the first time, I would've switched over regardless of the racing. The cars just give off the junior single seater vibe; an unimportant race series.

It's a pity because these cars do race and weigh in at a good standard in safety - which is hard to do - but the looks are so underwhelming; it's just not the mark of a premier series. One might think getting the aesthetics right would be the easy part but it's the important part if Indycar wants to reclaim any of its previous space in the American public consciousness. Now they are stuck in a vicious circle that needs to be broken at some point.

I went over to a pals place last Sunday to watch the Talladega NASCAR race; I'm not a fan of NASCAR and I'd never seen an entire race. This guy's another American whose lived in the UK for a number of years and a huge NASCAR and F1 fan. We got onto the subject of AOWR and I asked him if he ever followed CART, to which he said no but he'd watched a few IndyCar races over the years but he found the DW12 incredibly ugly and it put him off, to which I said that's a shame as it has produced some excellent racing this and last season. I do believe aesthetics play a big part.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I went over to a pals place last Sunday to watch the Talladega NASCAR race; I'm not a fan of NASCAR and I'd never seen an entire race. This guy's another American whose lived in the UK for a number of years and a huge NASCAR and F1 fan. We got onto the subject of AOWR and I asked him if he ever followed CART, to which he said no but he'd watched a few IndyCar races over the years but he found the DW12 incredibly ugly and it put him off, to which I said that's a shame as it has produced some excellent racing this and last season. I do believe aesthetics play a big part.

If aesthetics play a big part (which I agree they do), than why does your friend watch F1 and NASCAR? I don't know other people's opinion of F1 and NASCAR cars but they both look fairly ugly to me (NASCAR is getting a bit better). Does your pal consider F1 and NASCAR cars appealing?

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Salamus

If aesthetics play a big part (which I agree they do), than why does your friend watch F1 and NASCAR? I don't know other people's opinion of F1 and NASCAR cars but they both look fairly ugly to me (NASCAR is getting a bit better). Does your pal consider F1 and NASCAR cars appealing?

F1 and NASCAR are wealthy series and their authority is established and was cultivated over some years. They didn't split. So they can get away with ugly/underwhelming cars.

Indycar threw all their authority and wealth away with the split and find themselves outside and trying to reenter the American public consciousness. To start from scratch, they need a car to turn heads away from Cup; they haven't got that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

If aesthetics play a big part (which I agree they do), than why does your friend watch F1 and NASCAR? I don't know other people's opinion of F1 and NASCAR cars but they both look fairly ugly to me (NASCAR is getting a bit better). Does your pal consider F1 and NASCAR cars appealing?

Well I did ask, as liking F1 and NASCAR does seem very incongruous and he said it was the complete contrast between the two types of racing.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

F1 and NASCAR are wealthy series and their authority is established and was cultivated over some years. They didn't split. So they can get away with ugly/underwhelming cars.

So would your first sentence than play a bigger part than subjective views around asthetics of cars.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

So would your first sentence than play a bigger part than subjective views around asthetics of cars.

Please rephrase this question [?] as it doesn't make any sense.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Please rephrase this question [?] as it doesn't make any sense.

Sorry mate - the value of proof reading right there after being caught in two thoughts.

Basically I was saying that being an established, consistent and cultivated series would be the bigger part over and above any subjective views on car aesthetics

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Basically I was saying that being an established, consistent and cultivated series would be the bigger part over and above any subjective views on car aesthetics

That depends on context. For NASCAR, yes, for Indycar, the latter is a powerful ingredient that is useful to achieve the former.

The difference between the two is that NASCAR commands the American public consciousness and from this commanding position can afford to consolidate whereas Indycar is on the periphery of the American public consciousness and is therefore required to go on the offensive to reclaim some of that space lost to NASCAR. A bold approach to aesthetics would be a signal of intent, aesthetics is what people engage with on first impression.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

A bold approach to aesthetics would be a signal of intent, aesthetics is what people engage with on first impression.

More so than quality of racing or quality of drivers????

The current Dallara is not the issue with fans engagement in the series

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

More so than quality of racing or quality of drivers????

Of course. There are plenty of single seater racing with good drivers and good racing and noone watches it.

The current Dallara is not the issue with fans engagement in the series

It is an issue with fans. It's discussed everywhere.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

More so than quality of racing or quality of drivers????

The current Dallara is not the issue with fans engagement in the series

A poll would have to be conducted in order to find out how much the aethetics of the DW12 are an issue with race fans engagement in the series. Personally, whenever I watch a race. I wish those were Lolas, Reynards and Swifts charging round the track.

[Paradise City]

You don't need a poll. You're overthinking this, guys. It's a 1+1=2 equation.

And it bears out with what we are seeing. They've got racey cars, effective drivers, they plundered the marketing mix, introduced novelty and we are still left with dismal ratings. What box is left to tick? That's right - aesthetics.

[FstrthnU]

At it's best, the Dallara DW12 is just "good enough" and doesn't add anything to the spectacle. When you have a series as weak as Indycar is right now, you NEED a fantastic car to save it. It races really well, but in general the car itself is boring.

I really want Indycar to succeed, but if the aero kits don't radically change things, then Indycar really needs to take a look at a new car in the near-future

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

You don't need a poll. You're overthinking this, guys. It's a 1+1=2 equation.

And it bears out with what we are seeing. They've got racey cars, effective drivers, they plundered the marketing mix, introduced novelty and we are still left with dismal ratings. What box is left to tick? That's right - aesthetics.

I was begging the question about a poll, though I could set one up.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

At it's best, the Dallara DW12 is just "good enough" and doesn't add anything to the spectacle. When you have a series as weak as Indycar is right now, you NEED a fantastic car to save it. It races really well, but in general the car itself is boring.

I really want Indycar to succeed, but if the aero kits don't radically change things, then Indycar really needs to take a look at a new car in the near-future

But the aero kits aren't being implemented until 2015, according to Derrick Walker.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I was begging the question about a poll, though I could set one up.

If you want but you'd have to do a psychological test to gain a serious picture as to whether aesthetics play a role in "turning heads" because people's stated views often do not correspond with their subconscious desires. To me it's so much common-sense though.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

If you want but you'd have to do a psychological test to gain a serious picture as to whether aesthetics play a role in "turning heads" because people's stated views often do not correspond with their subconscious desires. To me it's so much common-sense though.

Also there would need to be a much larger IndyCar fan base, than the one here on 10-Tenths, in order to get a reasonably, accurate assessment.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

But the aero kits aren't being implemented until 2015, according to Derrick Walker.

Would aero kits honestly make a difference though? If aesthetics do play a big role, than the problem would be the overall design of the car. Different little pieces designed by different manufacturers won't change that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Would aero kits honestly make a difference though? If aesthetics do play a big role, than the problem would be the overall design of the car. Different little pieces designed by different manufacturers won't change that.

The whole aero-kit concept was first proposed by Lola, when bidding for the new chassis. Their idea was to build a universal tub, which could also be used by Indy Lights and to which different aero configurations could be applied, so that the car would look less specy Here is the link to their original proposal, http://www.lolacars.com/newsstory.asp?NewsId=190.

Dallara proposed two versions of the DW12 but for some reason chose to go with the one on the left and which has drawn so much criticism.



Though the tub is central to the car and to the drivers safety it doesn't necessarily dictate the overall design of the car. For example the Nissan/Michelin version of the Delta Wing, which was another concept proposed for the new chassis, had a tub from an Aston Martin LMP1.

[Canada ALMS fan]

They chose the one on the right. The one on the left looks way better but has less wheel protection, which was a goal of the new car IIRC. Also, the one on the right appears to be the oval trim which is far less attractive than road course version IMO.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

They chose the one on the right. The one on the left looks way better but has less wheel protection, which was a goal of the new car IIRC. Also, the one on the right appears to be the oval trim which is far less attractive than road course version IMO.

Sorry, yes it is the one on the right. Er... a slight mental aberration there.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

They chose the one on the right. The one on the left looks way better but has less wheel protection, which was a goal of the new car IIRC. Also, the one on the right appears to be the oval trim which is far less attractive than road course version IMO.

The one on the left has the Nerf bars at the back like the current car but it doesn't have those big, rounded side pods that cover the front of the rear tyres, and which didn't prove to be effective at all in Franchitti's crash at Houston.