FIA App K regulations - 01-01-2012

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I did Spa three years running without showing my papers.Its a non FIA event after all.!

EXACTLY Terence, then why are they needed?

[terence]

Possibly because the organisers think the FIA label a makes the event sound more up market.I very much doubt that if most cars were presented without these worthless three sheets of A4 the event would be would be cancelled.

[Tel 911S]

For rally cars running to MSA Historic rules there is only the requirement for a Historic Rally Vehicle Identity Form [ HRVIF ], which lasts for 10 years & only costs £ 83 [ I think ] .This has also been documentation enough for when we were doing a Belgian [ Omloop Van Vlaanderen ] event that was part of the British championship .

But if you wanted to do other European FIA Historic Championship events you had to have a HTP.

But with the cost of the HTP , & only lasting 5 years , perhaps the MSA could bring in a similar type of form for Historic Race cars , which might help competitors & keep the entries numbers from dropping off a lot .

Or am I only dreaming ?

[pomracer]

I received my FIA Garage Tax letter, despite my current HTP being issued in August 2012 , and therefore valid until 2017....so despite the hard sell ( by the way I did not see a BOG-OFF offer anywhere) I am not sure that I am inclined to go through the whole process again this year for the "fun" of it.

I note that Cobras and GT40s have a special rate ( perhaps something to do with more rigorous inspection??)

[Serge]

I'm in need of some more advice! As some of you may know I'm still working on my 1967 Lotus Europa restoring it and whilst I'm doing that I'm paying attention to the homologation forms and Appendix K to go racing in the future.

I'm in some discussions with a fellow Europa owner and racer about some of the modifications that are or aren't allowed by Appendix K.

Lotus Europa's were homologated in 1970, so this would put us in period G2. They were homologated as Group 3 & 4. My thinking is that we have to look at Appendix J of 1969 to make out the groups (because in 1971 the groups changed). In 1969 group 3 would be GT and group 4 would be sportscars (1971: touring cars & GT).

Appendix K says:
Touring, Competition Touring, GT and GTS cars of Period
G2 (1/1/1970-31/12/1971) onwards must comply with the
Appendix J international Competition regulations appropriate to
the final year of their period as defined in Article 3.

So we are looking at Appendix J of 1971.

But, appendix K then says:

(b) These models must have a competition history and the special
mechanical parts are limited to those authorised in the period
Appendix J rules applicable to Group 3 cars and Article 5 (Safety).


Also, this part about "alternative components" is not very clear to me:

Alternative components to the original manufacturer’s specifications
can only be used if it is proven that these components were allowed by the period Appendix J and/or homologation form applicable to the car concerned and, in both cases, used in that model of car in a Competition entered on the FIA International Sporting Calendar in
the period.


So my questions are:

1) Period J of 1971 allows any wheel width. Can I use any wheel width on my car, or do I need to provide period proof of those widths?

2) Appendix J allows the fitment of suspension attachment joints of a different type. Again, period proof needed?

3) Appendix J allows free induction systems, so any carb we want. But, again, only the stock one is homologated. Do we need to get period proof of alternatives?

So essentially: Period G2, sticking to homologated items? Which is essentially the standard car, therefor nothing to race with. What counts as an "alternative component", wheels? carbs? joints? Can we modify to appendix J of 1971? If so, do we need period proof for every different item?


Quite a long-winded post, so apologies, but I am really struggling with the regulations. Every time you think that you've figured it out, another addition somewhere will upset everything.

Hopefully someone will be able to help me out!

Thanks in advance,


Serge

[Mike Bell]

Serge, my interpretation (and I reiterate, my) of J and K is thus-

If you car is to be 1970 spec then it needs to conform to J of that period, in other words the version with that or a preceding year date. I haven't studied it, but this could be overridden by App K, which is updated regularly rather than a period 'set in stone' document.

Any modified parts fitted to the car now will have to be either homologated at the time or with proof that it / they were used in period. Normally in a competition run under an International permit. Just because something was 'free' in period, it doesn't mean it is 'free' now. This is perhaps why you don't see some models racing nowadays, as they were not homologated or never competed at a high enough level for proof of any mods to be available now.

All this is of course only needed if you want to race the car in events run at FIA level. You could always build (for example) a replica modsports Europa and run it in events that are happy to accept it.......

I may have said this before, but the MSA scrutineers that are responsible for HTP inspections are usually quite happy to give guidance on interpretation of J and K. They are listed in the blue book and on MSA website.

[terence]

Quite agree Mike, Serge, I assume you have as many Lotus books as is possible? I think one possible problem you have with your car is its build date.You need to be able to supply photographic evidence of modifications that were carried over till the seventies, or just build the car with reasonable mods that are used by most current day owner/builders?
Where are you based?

[Serge]

Thank you both, it was as I thought it would be!

I am based in Belgium and I have heard the rumours that our FIA inspectors aren't always up to the same standard as they are in the UK. Although I am sure that it won't be completely true, I was going to ask here first.

We are trying to make contact with some people who raced these in period, but there weren't so many races with an international FIA license that they participated in. One of them is the 1969 sebring 12h, but I only found a couple of on track photographs so far.

Is there a way to find out if a certain race was run on a national or international FIA license in period?

There has been evidence found to run a Europa as a sportscar in period G2, with a renault crossflow engine and some big modifications, but they are simply no match for their period rivals. I think they can do OK in GT spec without too many modifications, but some are definitely needed (carbs and exhaust at the least!).

Being in Belgium doesn't leave much room for non-FIA races. I know Pieter Bakker has his Legendary Circuits series, and that might be nice. But the championship that I had my eye on was the FHR-langstreckencup in Germany, and they need the HTP's.

I will need to do some more research and hopefully find some period proof!


Thanks everyone,

Serge

[Mike Bell]

Good luck Serge and apologies for not noticing that you were Belgium based!

Your comment about different HTP inspection standards in different countries could be worthy of a thread on its own, but perhaps not........

[terence]

Serge, congratulations on your choice of series! I will ask around on your behalf, one inspector lives 10km away from me, very helpfull guy and good friend of Jeremy Hall.
Actually, I'll try and call him but pretty sure hes away till early next week.
Have you checked World Sports Car site? Jan has done an excellent job on that site-well worth a look anyway.

[Serge]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Serge, congratulations on your choice of series! I will ask around on your behalf, one inspector lives 10km away from me, very helpfull guy and good friend of Jeremy Hall.
Actually, I'll try and call him but pretty sure hes away till early next week.
Have you checked World Sports Car site? Jan has done an excellent job on that site-well worth a look anyway.

Thank you Terence! There is no rush for me, I'll be happy to wait if he's away.

I have been looking at racingsportscars.com and touringcarracing.net, but I'm having trouble finding out if a meeting was run under an international or national license. Most of the racing appeared to have been in Germany, or a German championship abroad. Is there an easy way to find out what license they would have used, or better, if any of those entries would mean something for the FIA?

Sebring and Targa Florio would have been international without doubt.

In the targa florio the Lotus Europa was entered as a production grand touring car and therefor wouldn't have many (if any) modifications. From the photographs I have of that car there aren't any obvious ones.

I have found some photographs of the Europa at the Sebring race, but they are taken from a distance and there isn't much detail.


Thanks again,

Serge

[zefarelly]

There once was an Irish Lotus Cortina . . .

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Your comment about different HTP inspection standards in different countries could be worthy of a thread on its own, but perhaps not........

[delta]

Very pleased to see you have all got your heads in the blue book . Spare a thought for me , at the ring and it's thick fog and raining . Never mind Monaco next week

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Your comment about different HTP inspection standards in different countries could be worthy of a thread on its own, but perhaps not........

In theory it is all centralised these days (e.g. all forms are issued by the FIA themselves) - the idea being something like keeping a level playing field and trying to keep track of duplicate numbers etc.
Your local inspector appears to be your contact point for the gnomes and doesn't have the final say in whether a form is issued or not.

Unfortunately it sometimes appears that someone in head office doesn't know a lot about old cars - e.g. asking for a photo to prove that a 1,000cc F3 car had a single carburettor...

But it might be more realistic than the system whereby some inspectors used to insist that you filled in the section titled History (where known) with something etc.

[terence]

Originally Posted by delta

Very pleased to see you have all got your heads in the blue book . Spare a thought for me , at the ring and it's thick fog and raining . Never mind Monaco next week

A t least there was a ray of sunshine this afternoon
Never mind, at least theres the chsnce of a nice hot pizza this evening.

[Bruce Chambers]

Having just had a look at the latest version of Appendix K released yesterday I am as always confused!

I need to fit a basic complaint roll cage to a period F GTS car but the regulations seem contradictory:

Appendix 6 Article 1.1.2 (page 158) it reads:
- For GT, GTS and GTP cars of Period F participating in Circuit
Races and Hill Climbs (i.e. excluding Sporting Rallies): it is
mandatory they be fitted, as a minimum, with a ROPS of the
specification used on the car when used in period competition or,
where possible, a ROPS in accordance with Drawing K1 or K2.

then 2 pages later (page 260) in 1.1.5 (c) it reads:
For T, CT, GT, GTS and GTP cars of Period F onwards
The minimum specification is a ROPS in conformity with drawing
K-3 with a compulsory diagonal (orientation optional) and door
bars complying with Appendix V.

Can one of you clever buggers tell me what the minimum requirement actually is?

[Bruce Chambers]

Actually reading it again I think I understand, the first regualtion is a specific exception from complying with the second........clear as mud!

[PeterMorley]

The second regulation presumably applies to cars after period F, rather than including period F.

[Bruce Chambers]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

The second regulation presumably applies to cars after period F, rather than including period F.

No I think it does include Period F cars but circuit race and hill climb cars get an exemption to run the more basic roll bar, stage rally cars of period F would need to run to drawing K3.
That then raises the question of what you would therefore need to have to run on an event such as Tour Auto.........

[Normal Bloke]

What is more, even the HTP inspectors do not know what is going on.
It's a total farce!

[terence]

What is even more farcicle is knowing that a lot of current problems were brought about by the inspectors themselves!!

[barnettracing]

Hello. I've got myself a 1963 MGB that I'm going to be turning into a FIA Appendix K compliant car. However, I've already reached my first sticking point.

I need to order the homologation specification from the MSA but, on the online order form, it asks for 'Your homologation no'. Am I right in thinking this is the homologation number of the specific model? In which case, is the a pre '66 MGB no. 198?

[Bruce Chambers]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Hello. I've got myself a 1963 MGB that I'm going to be turning into a FIA Appendix K compliant car. However, I've already reached my first sticking point.

I need to order the homologation specification from the MSA but, on the online order form, it asks for 'Your homologation no'. Am I right in thinking this is the homologation number of the specific model? In which case, is the a pre '66 MGB no. 198?

You can build your car to whichever set of appropriate existing papers you prefer or feel would be most advantageous, so assuming you intend on building a Period F GTS car then you have the choice of using either 72 or 198. If you intend to run a 5 main bearing engine then I think it will have to be #198 unless there was an extension to 72 that allowed this.

[terence]

You should build to 198. No acid dipping the shell ok?

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by terence

You should build to 198. No acid dipping the shell ok?

Thanks Terence. Does 198 make provisions for the 3-bearing engine?

My final question (then I'll stop bothering you all for a bit), in the MSA's shop I'm given the choice to buy FIA Current Homologation (£64), Current Homologation Extension (£41), or Lapsed Homologation (£41). Do I need the lapsed homologation papers?