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3 Jan 2007, 06:20 (Ref:1804494) | #126 | ||
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While on the subject of South America, can anyone help with this,
1971 Osvaldo Bessia, Brabham BT23 Fiat, Argentina F2 Champion. He seems to have acquired the car in 1968/9. |
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3 Jan 2007, 11:27 (Ref:1805019) | #127 | |||
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BT23C-14 1968 Frank Williams for Carlos Piaretti, Cacho Fangio, Temporada BT23C-15 1968 Eduardo Copello, Temporada, entered by Berta, retained for several years 2006 Phil Harris The Fiat engine was popular in Argentina's equivalent of F2. I just noticed the reference to Dave Webster in a BT23 in Canada in 1968. Chris, have you got anywhere on this? Could it have been a BT23G? Allen |
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3 Jan 2007, 23:38 (Ref:1805675) | #128 | |||
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Andrew |
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4 Jan 2007, 00:31 (Ref:1805716) | #129 | ||
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Webster was, I think, Californian rather than Canadian. I think it is a BT23 as the G didn't appear until 1969 did it? Possibly the BT23 then used by Ted Thomas in 1970
Chris |
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4 Jan 2007, 00:41 (Ref:1805724) | #130 | ||
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Yes, his address is given as Newport Beach, CA.
Still stuck on #6 (that Paragon has for sale) or #9 as the candidates. Andrew Last edited by Andrew Fellowes; 4 Jan 2007 at 00:44. |
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4 Jan 2007, 07:59 (Ref:1805847) | #131 | ||
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The Brabham production lists that I've seen show the G as a 1968 car, the same year as the BT23F. The difference seems to be the spec, with the F having that latest FT200 and the G having a Mk 5 - which seems rather old. Maybe there was a small market for a cheap as chips FB car alongside the 'state of the art' car for Gubelmann.
Allen |
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4 Jan 2007, 21:47 (Ref:1806596) | #132 | ||
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Allen,
The price difference between an FT200 and a MK5 back then would have been maybe $ 70.00 or $ 80.00 pds. The more likely reason would either have been the weight saving , FT200 ,90 lbs. approx. against 70 lbs approx. for a MK series , also the torque capacity of an FT is far greater. Bryan. |
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4 Jan 2007, 21:56 (Ref:1806608) | #133 | ||
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Of course - I should have remember we have a Hewland expert here.
In that case I don't really understand why MRD did both a BT23F and a BT23G. Maybe one at the start of the year and one nearer the end? But they had the BT21C selling well and the BT29 on its way so they sound more like special orders. Ted, Denis - do you have anything on these cars? Allen |
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8 Jan 2007, 05:47 (Ref:1809286) | #134 | ||
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BT23C-2 RF14
1967 Frank Gardner 1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin 1969 Whitmore, Don Godden next seen 1973 A/S March 1st p.56 Low Cost racing for sale 1974 A/S November 28th p.57 ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941 next seen 1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey. 1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series Hugo Struder? to Keith Norman to 2006 John Councill Can anyone help me on any dates/info for this lot please? Andrew |
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8 Jan 2007, 10:50 (Ref:1809427) | #135 | ||
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Allen, I think that it is John Counsell. I spoke to him last year at the HSCC meeting, Silverstone at the end of May. I was getting info. from him regarding the cars he actually had there, but I see that he advised me of one he had at home. Unfortunately, my note simply says 'BT23C - Frank Lithgow, Peter Gethin' although I seem to recall him advising that it was a recent acquisition, but at that time it could have meant 2005!
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8 Jan 2007, 21:00 (Ref:1809929) | #136 | ||
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Thanks John, the info came from a mate over in WA and it was only after I put the phone down did I realise I hadn't a clue how to spell Counsell.
I'll see if I can get some dates. Andrew |
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12 Jan 2007, 09:59 (Ref:1813081) | #137 | |||
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I find it ironic that Spencer Martin drove the BT23D at Eastern Creek, as it originally debuted Round 6 1968 Gold Star Series, and he retired from racing openwheelers after Round 5. |
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12 Jan 2007, 21:41 (Ref:1813636) | #138 | ||
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piglos, many thanks. I am collating the BT23s for a new page for Allen so its set me thinking, if it was say built in December '66 but not raced 'till January '67, is it a '66 car or a '67.
Surely if it was the model for '67 it should be listed as just that? Sorry for being a bit pedantic. Anyone any thoughts? Andrew |
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16 Jan 2007, 06:15 (Ref:1816231) | #139 | ||
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BT23-3 RF8 FVA 7003
1967 Frank Gardner 1968 Xavier Perrot 1969 Destroyed by Perrot at Nurburgring 27th April nothing more ‘till 1984 Gerard Gamand found nr Valance in poor condition without bodywork. 1989 Michale Champelovier (owned for 2 months) 1989 Thiery De Mortier 2007 Thierry De Mortier retains |
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16 Jan 2007, 21:53 (Ref:1816991) | #140 | ||
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BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner 1968 Walter Habegger? 1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis) 1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September Just going through some old mags to see how good the F2 coverage was and stumbled over this in 1968 Rome GP report (Speedworld International 2 Nov 1968 p12) : "An older BT23, an ex-works car, was entrusted to the BWA Formula 3 driver Enzo Corti, and this was his first F2 drive. The car was previously used by Hulme in Tasmania after he had written off his original F2 chassis during last year's series and was raced by Brambilla at Tulln-Langenlebard in July". |
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16 Jan 2007, 22:04 (Ref:1816997) | #141 | ||
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On the shelf below I also have Eddie Guba's 1968 "Race Report 2" which has chassis numbers for F2 races. It lists both Brambilla's and Corti's cars as BT23-4 but also uses that number for Habegger's car at Thruxton in April and Hockenheim in October.
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16 Jan 2007, 23:12 (Ref:1817061) | #142 | |||
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More pressure for Echappements I think Allen. For the moment does this look 'asseptable' BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012 1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner 1968 Enzo Corti, Rome GP, S/I 2nd Nov p.12 1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis) 1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September BT23-4 FVA 7008 1967 Winklemann for Rees 1968 Walter Habbeger 1969 Bruno Fray, (sometimes listed as Corti/Brambilla which was given the wrong chassis during a rebuild) Andrew |
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17 Jan 2007, 01:20 (Ref:1817108) | #143 | ||
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As far as I can see Bruno Frey had a Tecno 69 through out 1969 and 1970, Chris when did he drive BT23-4?
Edit: oops I see he bought it in Feb. 69. Andrew Last edited by Andrew Fellowes; 17 Jan 2007 at 01:30. |
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20 Jan 2007, 13:11 (Ref:1820267) | #144 | |||
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In earlier years, when Brabham numbers had a year suffix, a car built in 1963 (say) for racing in 1964 would have had a '-64' suffix. In this they were following earlier Cooper practice (in spite of what at least one later owner believes... ) |
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20 Jan 2007, 20:53 (Ref:1820504) | #145 | ||
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Thanks David, I just wanted to establish a 'rule' to work by, and I was surprised and perhaps a little disappointed to see that one of the cars at the Tasman Revival was claiming to be older than the accepted year.
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20 Jan 2007, 23:26 (Ref:1820595) | #146 | ||
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But I suppose it comes down to accepted by whom? Does CAMS have a regulation for historic racing that states the car is "aged" from it's first race, or it's first intended race? As David states, in his opinion it should be classed as a 1967 car, and I can see the reasoning behind that, and agree.
Technically, I believe that it was probably built in 1966, and I believe that it is claimed to be quite innocently. I don't believe there is anything to be gained by Peter Simms by claiming it is a 1966 car. Anybody who has an interest in the car should know the history, especially as it is a unique model. |
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21 Jan 2007, 05:25 (Ref:1820705) | #147 | ||
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No & I understand what you are saying, and Peter if you are reading this, I was merely trying to establish what is the norm, your car is on a provisional page I am writing for Old Raceingcars.com and I need to set out in a way that is universally understood.
Cams Certificate of Description says 'what year does your car now represent' and as I understand it, it has to be a year it raced. Now, that may not be the year it was built of course and I guess what you put on an entry form is up to you! |
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25 Jan 2007, 06:14 (Ref:1825384) | #148 | |||
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Mark Raymont, late 80's to 2003 with Holbay & Mk8 forgot to add now possibly in a museum in Europe Last edited by Andrew Fellowes; 25 Jan 2007 at 06:16. |
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27 Jan 2007, 10:32 (Ref:1827049) | #149 | |||
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Innocence...
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30 Jan 2007, 21:37 (Ref:1829718) | #150 | ||
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This one needs a bit more homework but here is a little bit more;
BT23C-2 RF14 1967 Frank Gardner 1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin 1969 Whitmore, Don Godden next seen 1973 A/S March 1st, Low Cost racing for sale 1974 A/S November 28th ex Gethin for sale, 01 567 3941 next seen 1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey. 1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series next seen with Hugo Struder? 1997 Joseph Mayer 2005 John Councill and retains 2007 so this does not look right after Struder, then to Keith Norman |
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