Brabham BT23 - Page 6

Andrew Fellowes · 3 Jan 2007, 06:20 (Ref:1804494)

While on the subject of South America, can anyone help with this,

1971 Osvaldo Bessia, Brabham BT23 Fiat, Argentina F2 Champion.
He seems to have acquired the car in 1968/9.

allenbrown · 3 Jan 2007, 11:27 (Ref:1805019)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

While on the subject of South America, can anyone help with this,

1971 Osvaldo Bessia, Brabham BT23 Fiat, Argentina F2 Champion.
He seems to have acquired the car in 1968/9.

Maybe one of these?

BT23C-14
1968 Frank Williams for Carlos Piaretti, Cacho Fangio, Temporada

BT23C-15
1968 Eduardo Copello, Temporada, entered by Berta, retained for several years
2006 Phil Harris

The Fiat engine was popular in Argentina's equivalent of F2.

I just noticed the reference to Dave Webster in a BT23 in Canada in 1968. Chris, have you got anywhere on this? Could it have been a BT23G?

Allen

Andrew Fellowes · 3 Jan 2007, 23:38 (Ref:1805675)

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

I just noticed the reference to Dave Webster in a BT23 in Canada in 1968. Chris, have you got anywhere on this? Could it have been a BT23G?

Allen

ARRC results for Riverside Nov. 21st '69 give Dave Webster, BT23 as a d.n.f in the FB race. However what is more interesting is that it gives Bill Gubelmann in the BT23F also as a d.n.f. We know the latter to be correct so it adds credence to the former, but I accept it could have been a G.

Andrew

Chris Townsend · 4 Jan 2007, 00:31 (Ref:1805716)

Webster was, I think, Californian rather than Canadian. I think it is a BT23 as the G didn't appear until 1969 did it? Possibly the BT23 then used by Ted Thomas in 1970

Chris

Andrew Fellowes · 4 Jan 2007, 00:41 (Ref:1805724)

Yes, his address is given as Newport Beach, CA.

Still stuck on #6 (that Paragon has for sale) or #9 as the candidates.

Andrew

allenbrown · 4 Jan 2007, 07:59 (Ref:1805847)

The Brabham production lists that I've seen show the G as a 1968 car, the same year as the BT23F. The difference seems to be the spec, with the F having that latest FT200 and the G having a Mk 5 - which seems rather old. Maybe there was a small market for a cheap as chips FB car alongside the 'state of the art' car for Gubelmann.

Allen

Bryan Miller · 4 Jan 2007, 21:47 (Ref:1806596)

Allen,

The price difference between an FT200 and a MK5 back then would have been maybe $ 70.00 or $ 80.00 pds.
The more likely reason would either have been the weight saving , FT200 ,90 lbs. approx. against 70 lbs approx. for a MK series , also the torque capacity of an FT is far greater.

Bryan.

allenbrown · 4 Jan 2007, 21:56 (Ref:1806608)

Of course - I should have remember we have a Hewland expert here.

In that case I don't really understand why MRD did both a BT23F and a BT23G. Maybe one at the start of the year and one nearer the end? But they had the BT21C selling well and the BT29 on its way so they sound more like special orders.

Ted, Denis - do you have anything on these cars?

Allen

Andrew Fellowes · 8 Jan 2007, 05:47 (Ref:1809286)

BT23C-2 RF14
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
next seen
1973 A/S March 1st p.56 Low Cost racing for sale
1974 A/S November 28th p.57 ex Gethin for sale 01 567 3941
next seen
1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey.
1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series
Hugo Struder? to Keith Norman to
2006 John Councill
Can anyone help me on any dates/info for this lot please?

Andrew

**John Turner** · 8 Jan 2007, 10:50 (Ref:1809427)

Allen, I think that it is John Counsell. I spoke to him last year at the HSCC meeting, Silverstone at the end of May. I was getting info. from him regarding the cars he actually had there, but I see that he advised me of one he had at home. Unfortunately, my note simply says 'BT23C - Frank Lithgow, Peter Gethin' although I seem to recall him advising that it was a recent acquisition, but at that time it could have meant 2005!

Andrew Fellowes · 8 Jan 2007, 21:00 (Ref:1809929)

Thanks John, the info came from a mate over in WA and it was only after I put the phone down did I realise I hadn't a clue how to spell Counsell.
I'll see if I can get some dates.

Andrew

piglos · 12 Jan 2007, 09:59 (Ref:1813081)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

BT23A, is that right it is a 1966 chassis as per entry for Tasman Revival?

Its first race 21st January 1967 in the Wigram Trophy during the NZ leg of the Tasman Series. It had apparently arrived by plane only days before the meeting. Considering this, I would expect it to be a 1966 chassis, as this was the prototype for their assault on the 1967 World Championship so it was more of a priority to get it right in England before they sent it out, rather than get it into raceworthy condition while Jack drove.

I find it ironic that Spencer Martin drove the BT23D at Eastern Creek, as it originally debuted Round 6 1968 Gold Star Series, and he retired from racing openwheelers after Round 5.

Andrew Fellowes · 12 Jan 2007, 21:41 (Ref:1813636)

piglos, many thanks. I am collating the BT23s for a new page for Allen so its set me thinking, if it was say built in December '66 but not raced 'till January '67, is it a '66 car or a '67.
Surely if it was the model for '67 it should be listed as just that? Sorry for being a bit pedantic.

Anyone any thoughts? Andrew

Andrew Fellowes · 16 Jan 2007, 06:15 (Ref:1816231)

BT23-3 RF8 FVA 7003
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 Xavier Perrot
1969 Destroyed by Perrot at Nurburgring 27th April
nothing more ‘till
1984 Gerard Gamand found nr Valance in poor condition without bodywork.
1989 Michale Champelovier (owned for 2 months)
1989 Thiery De Mortier
2007 Thierry De Mortier retains

allenbrown · 16 Jan 2007, 21:53 (Ref:1816991)

BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner
1968 Walter Habegger?
1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis)
1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September

Just going through some old mags to see how good the F2 coverage was and stumbled over this in 1968 Rome GP report (Speedworld International 2 Nov 1968 p12) :

"An older BT23, an ex-works car, was entrusted to the BWA Formula 3 driver Enzo Corti, and this was his first F2 drive. The car was previously used by Hulme in Tasmania after he had written off his original F2 chassis during last year's series and was raced by Brambilla at Tulln-Langenlebard in July".

allenbrown · 16 Jan 2007, 22:04 (Ref:1816997)

On the shelf below I also have Eddie Guba's 1968 "Race Report 2" which has chassis numbers for F2 races. It lists both Brambilla's and Corti's cars as BT23-4 but also uses that number for Habegger's car at Thruxton in April and Hockenheim in October.

Andrew Fellowes · 16 Jan 2007, 23:12 (Ref:1817061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

On the shelf below I also have Eddie Guba's 1968 "Race Report 2" which has chassis numbers for F2 races. It lists both Brambilla's and Corti's cars as BT23-4 but also uses that number for Habegger's car at Thruxton in April and Hockenheim in October.

Habegger has a d.n.a. for the Rome GP in '68 that Corti was at. I assume that BT23-2 was in Italy and BT23-4 was in Switzerland. I don't understand when the chassis plate muddle between #2 and #4 took place, and we don't have anything for either post 1970.
More pressure for Echappements I think Allen.

For the moment does this look 'asseptable'

BT23-2 RF6 FVA 7012
1967 Denny Hulme/Frank Gardner
1968 Enzo Corti, Rome GP, S/I 2nd Nov p.12
1969 Picchio Rosso/Enzo Corti, (23-4 scratched on chassis)
1970 Vittorio Brambilla, last used at Tulln Langlebarn on the 13th September

BT23-4 FVA 7008
1967 Winklemann for Rees
1968 Walter Habbeger
1969 Bruno Fray, (sometimes listed as Corti/Brambilla which was given the wrong chassis during a rebuild)

Andrew

Andrew Fellowes · 17 Jan 2007, 01:20 (Ref:1817108)

As far as I can see Bruno Frey had a Tecno 69 through out 1969 and 1970, Chris when did he drive BT23-4?
Edit: oops I see he bought it in Feb. 69.
Andrew

David McKinney · 20 Jan 2007, 13:11 (Ref:1820267)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

piglos, many thanks. I am collating the BT23s for a new page for Allen so its set me thinking, if it was say built in December '66 but not raced 'till January '67, is it a '66 car or a '67.
Surely if it was the model for '67 it should be listed as just that? Sorry for being a bit pedantic.

Anyone any thoughts? Andrew

It was never intended to race before 1967, so was IMHO a 1967 model, or prototype if you like.
In earlier years, when Brabham numbers had a year suffix, a car built in 1963 (say) for racing in 1964 would have had a '-64' suffix.
In this they were following earlier Cooper practice (in spite of what at least one later owner believes... )

Andrew Fellowes · 20 Jan 2007, 20:53 (Ref:1820504)

Thanks David, I just wanted to establish a 'rule' to work by, and I was surprised and perhaps a little disappointed to see that one of the cars at the Tasman Revival was claiming to be older than the accepted year.

piglos · 20 Jan 2007, 23:26 (Ref:1820595)

But I suppose it comes down to accepted by whom? Does CAMS have a regulation for historic racing that states the car is "aged" from it's first race, or it's first intended race? As David states, in his opinion it should be classed as a 1967 car, and I can see the reasoning behind that, and agree.

Technically, I believe that it was probably built in 1966, and I believe that it is claimed to be quite innocently. I don't believe there is anything to be gained by Peter Simms by claiming it is a 1966 car. Anybody who has an interest in the car should know the history, especially as it is a unique model.

Andrew Fellowes · 21 Jan 2007, 05:25 (Ref:1820705)

No & I understand what you are saying, and Peter if you are reading this, I was merely trying to establish what is the norm, your car is on a provisional page I am writing for Old Raceingcars.com and I need to set out in a way that is universally understood.

Cams Certificate of Description says 'what year does your car now represent' and as I understand it, it has to be a year it raced. Now, that may not be the year it was built of course and I guess what you put on an entry form is up to you!

Andrew Fellowes · 25 Jan 2007, 06:14 (Ref:1825384)

Quote:

Originally Posted by David McKinney

I have the 1990 owner as Mark Raymond (or Rayment) on this side of the Irish Sea

BT23C-11
Mark Raymont, late 80's to 2003 with Holbay & Mk8

forgot to add now possibly in a museum in Europe

275 GTB-4 · 27 Jan 2007, 10:32 (Ref:1827049)

Quote:

Originally Posted by piglos

But I suppose it comes down to accepted by whom? Does CAMS have a regulation for historic racing that states the car is "aged" from it's first race, or it's first intended race? As David states, in his opinion it should be classed as a 1967 car, and I can see the reasoning behind that, and agree.

Technically, I believe that it was probably built in 1966, and I believe that it is claimed to be quite innocently. I don't believe there is anything to be gained by Peter Simms by claiming it is a 1966 car. Anybody who has an interest in the car should know the history, especially as it is a unique model.

Peter is a genuinly nice fellow....http://www.summit.net.au/~simmsy/Photos.html

Andrew Fellowes · 30 Jan 2007, 21:37 (Ref:1829718)

This one needs a bit more homework but here is a little bit more;

BT23C-2 RF14
1967 Frank Gardner
1968 F Lythgoe, P Gethin
1969 Whitmore, Don Godden
next seen
1973 A/S March 1st, Low Cost racing for sale
1974 A/S November 28th ex Gethin for sale, 01 567 3941
next seen
1982 for sale, Northdown Racing, Ripley, Surrey.
1982 Ian Web loaned to Mike Hartley for Gates-Varley Monoposto Series
next seen with Hugo Struder?
1997 Joseph Mayer
2005 John Councill and retains 2007

so this does not look right after Struder, then to Keith Norman

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