ALMS Round 4: Lime Rock

[BullMan]

ALMS just announced on Twitter than Level 5 wins P2.

[Maelochs]

Yes, Muscle Milk has converted their HPD ARX-03a to an 03c with the wider front tires and associated bodywork.

Re: "professional" and all that ...

Both series are full of drivers who pay to play, and both series are full of teams who openly acknowledge that.

Further, a lot of drivers switch between the two series freely.

What I have deduced after years of watching and attending both series is that the Rules and the Enforcement of Rules is what is different.

Rolex, with beefier cars and more of a NASCAR mindset, allowed more contact between cars, and penalized less. That's just how they did it. Not better or worse per se, but some people liked it (not a lot) and some people didn't (most sports car racing fans, pretty much.)

ALMS has always been less tolerant of contact (though they have let a little bit more go on in GT, where it is somewhat safer) but ALMS has always been quicker to penalize, where Rolex has been more likely to overlook, a little Bump and Run.

That is the difference I see, and I have spent a long time both trackside and at my TV/PC watching it.

Personally I think sports car racing is Not supposed to be a contact sport, and avoidable contact even if it is a result of brainfade or red mist, and certainly if it is a blatant attempt to force one's way through, should be penalized to discourage such behavior. That's an opinion, but it's mine and I like it.

Other people are free to have different opinions, I don't really care.

What I do care about is whether USCR chooses a loose or tight interpretation of the contact rules.

It is like watching a football game where one team delivers a lot of cheap shots, late hits, and such ... maybe it is a lot of "bone-crunching action" and maybe fans of the team doing it think it's great, but for me it spoils the sport. I think players should be penalized for breaking the rules.

Same with racing. Some folks like a lot of contact, and for those folks there is NASCAR, where it is perfectly acceptable to push another driver out of the way if you lack the skill or speed to get by any other way.

Sports car racing has traditionally emphasized skill over force, and that is what I prefer.

Re: "We race to have fun" or whatever ... I recorded that little speech and will transcribe it later, but people pretending Guy Cosmo was saying people in ALMS are just playing kid games while the racing in Rolex is Real racing are just being dishonest.

If people need top be dishonest to win an debate, they automatically lose the debate.

Anyway ... i don't mind Lime Rock. it has a completely different character than any other track because of the dense traffic. yes, the traffic can impeded drivers, but that just makes the skill of handling traffic that much more important, and that is definitely one part of the skill set needed in endurance racing.

If every track was a Tilkedrome and every field limited to twenty cars, we would never have these traffic issues .... and every racing would be equally boring after a while.

Really, what was the problem? There was only one caution for the first however long (I will look it up later) and really not a lot of contact, and most of it not very severe.

Malucelli's was about the worst impact and that could have happened anywhere a lot of cars happened to come to a tight bit of track at the same time. As someone else mentioned it didn't even look like he was going for a dive-bomb pass; he just didn't look far enough ahead (and maybe couldn't see past the Porsche) and was caught off guard by the brake lights.

Anyway, I enjoyed the race by and large, and I feel kind of sad for anyone who didn't but we all have choices to make. Those who choose not to enjoy and still watch have that right.

[Matt]

My photos from Yesterday and today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98452123@N05/

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Well it was nice to see alms back on track, even nicer for a race with just two fcy.i was bummed out about the last minute caution but it was for a good reason not a broken d wing in a safe area. I think I won't say bmw is going to be superior just yet,I think this track played a lot into it.well see how they do at mosport and road America.also nice to see the 3 having better results than the 4. Dyson did good for the first hour,and atleast they finished.as for the Bristol Cosmo incident. I'm almost convinced it was a racing incident with the slow dyson causing them to stack up almost like vette and BMW at road Atlanta last year. I agree with maelochs in most incidents being racing incidents not dumb dive bombs and bump and runs.and some of you are pretty lost if you think grand am is "professional" racing, it's far from it.and saying there a lot of cross over its not a lot.id like to see more "pro" dp drivers run in p2 and gt and see how the races change for the worse with all those pros from that pro series.

[ThatGuy]

I saw the Briscoe Cosmo incident in person and from what I saw it looked like Briscoe got a big run going up the hill. He was centimeters from the 01's wing and I could just tell something was going to happen.

[FstrthnU]

http://www.alms.com/articles/luhr-gr...ast-grand-prix

So we have clarification on the situation in LMP2: the #551 Level 5 will still be credited with the "win" but it has a post-race 60-second penalty which moves the #01 ESM into 1st in points.

So the points order is:

#01 ESM
#551 Level 5
#552 Level 5
#02 ESM

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://www.alms.com/articles/luhr-gr...ast-grand-prix

So we have clarification on the situation in LMP2: the #551 Level 5 will still be credited with the "win" but it has a post-race 60-second penalty which moves the #01 ESM into 1st in points.

So the points order is:

#01 ESM
#551 Level 5
#552 Level 5
#02 ESM

That makes no sense.

[Ephaeton]

prior art: team falken tire @ laguna..
I don't like post-race penalties..

[broadrun96]

Nope, was a pointless no call during the race given the penalty on Auberlin earlier. Would have been unavoidable in traffic but was just the two of them and it's the following car's responsibility to maintain a safe pace. Nothing Briscoe did there seemed within the usual sportscar driving standards. But the penalty seems like the old NASCAR stance that don't change what the fans saw on track as the finish. And no, that's no merger bashing, just feel losing Beaux has delayed some penalty decisions and made me scratch my head about other calls and no calls.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Originally Posted by Salamus

That makes no sense.

Agree completely! It's ridiculous really.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Matt

My photos from Yesterday and today.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/98452123@N05/

WOW! You got some great shots.
One of the great things about the ALMS, is the open paddock access.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by FstrthnU

http://www.alms.com/articles/luhr-gr...ast-grand-prix

So we have clarification on the situation in LMP2: the #551 Level 5 will still be credited with the "win" but it has a post-race 60-second penalty which moves the #01 ESM into 1st in points.

So the points order is:

#01 ESM
#551 Level 5
#552 Level 5
#02 ESM

So if the penalty had been called before the end of the race, ESM would have been the winning team, but because race control was indecisive, they were robbed of the victory.
I understand not wanting to change the finishing order after the race has already been completed, however in cases where the victory was attained by wrecking the car in front of you, I think the finishing order should be amended.
Regarding this sort of racing being the result of the NASCAR buyout, there have been several such finishes allowed to stand in the fairly recent ALMS history, such as Laguna 09.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Congrats to Jonathan Edwards on his ALMS class win.

+1 first ALMS win!

[TRspitfirefan]

I have to say, I really enjoyed the race despite the little bit of controversy.
Great job by most of the field, only TWO full course cautions. That's not half bad at a crowded track like Lime Rock.

Really cool cars + some great on track action + a very beautiful race course = 1 great event!
I wish I could have been there.

[Fogelhund]

If anyone finds any video of the incident, let me know.

[chernaudi]

I tried to post this yesterday, but the forum crapped out and I wasn't able to get on until this morning:

Level 5 551 declared winner in LMP2 in spite of that incident.

Goes along with the decision that Walker/Elkins and co made at Road Atlanta when the #6 MSR entry bumped the WTR #10 out of the way on the last lap--it's a 60 second penalty if you run someone off the road or spin someone out, unless it's the last lap or last few minutes, then it's fair game.

I wish that IMSA would adopt the ACO/FIA's sporting regs on this, where it's a stop and go penalty or an equivalent time penalty when not judged as a racing incident, or, better yet, poach Beaux Barfield back from the Indy Car series.

I'm sorry, but less brutal moves than what Ryan did where called for avoidable contact/rough driving. It seems that NASCAR's already got their hands in IMSA race control.

To add to what I wanted to post, the old NASCAR practice of "not demoting a winning team because of a penalty, but taking away points and prize money" seems just stupid and awkward in this case--IMSA in the past has refused to classify teams or taken away finishing positions for lesser technical regs infringements and lesser or similar instances of contact.

These enforcements of late race penalties has been so inconstant. Not only do I believe that in general that a 60 second hold is excessive in general (WEC only uses stop and go penalties for most instances of avoidable contact penalties, and the WEC seems to have less instances of such events in general), but if you're gonna be so draconian, you have to be so no matter when or where in an event.

Road Atlanta GA race: Pizzonia runs Angelli off the road, no penalty.

Mid Ohio: Curran accidentally bumps and spins Arberlin when Bill was on old tires and fading, and Eric got a 1:30 penalty after the race and gets screwed out of the win and demoted the last car on the lead lap.

Lime Rock ALMS: Briscoe basically runs over Cosmo, accident or otherwise. No penalty called in the race, Level 5 keeps the win, but ESM gets first place points.

Makes no since, considering that I've seen less aggressive moves than what Ryan had with Guy (McNish at Sebring when he got bumped by an LMPC and Allan got a 60 second hold, and the aforementioned Mid Ohio last lap deal) get a penalty called that effected the results. Of course, the deal at RA, which seemed to be intentional, was deemed a racing incident.

IMSA/USCR needs someone like Eduardo Freitas or to get Beaux Barfield back from the Indy Car series, because it seems that NASCAR has gotten to guys like Walker and Elkins.

[chernaudi]

And as a side note, I've seen plenty of Audi commercials during ALMS and GA races this year, even though Audi Sport isn't a full season entry in either series, the recent team announcement in GA for the second half of the season not withstanding.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Goes along with the decision that Walker/Elkins and co made at Road Atlanta when the #6 MSR entry bumped the WTR #10 out of the way on the last lap--it's a 60 second penalty if you run someone off the road or spin someone out, unless it's the last lap or last few minutes, then it's fair game.

What is so special about the last few minutes? Drivers are supposed to act like drivers throughout the entire race. If you punt someone off on the last lap and it is deemed not a racing incident, then you are handed a 60-second penalty, simple as that.

If I was the race director, and an incident occurred on the last lap, I would hand an 80-second penalty (60+time in pits) after the race.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

These enforcements of late race penalties has been so inconstant. Not only do I believe that in general that a 60 second hold is excessive in general (WEC only uses stop and go penalties for most instances of avoidable contact penalties, and the WEC seems to have less instances of such events in general), but if you're gonna be so draconian, you have to be so no matter when or where in an event.

Usually the car that spins takes longer than 1 min to recover. I think the 60-second penalty is fair.

And to be fair, the ALMS runs on smaller tracks and has roughly the same number of cars as the WEC. Not to mention that the ALMS field consists of slower cars (GTC), so it makes sense that there are more accidents.

I agree with your last point though, the ALMS/GA have to be more consistent with these calls. What does the actual rule state about incidents that occur near the end of a race?

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Salamus

What is so special about the last few minutes? Drivers are supposed to act like drivers throughout the entire race. If you punt someone off on the last lap and it is deemed not a racing incident, then you are handed a 60-second penalty, simple as that.

I agree. So does chernaudi, obviously:

These enforcements of late race penalties has been so inconstant. Not only do I believe that in general that a 60 second hold is excessive in general (...snip...), but if you're gonna be so draconian, you have to be so no matter when or where in an event.

[Articus]

Not really fair for Cosmo. I seem to remember he was in the thick of things last year with the ESM Ferrari and said nice guy Cosmo was gone... I wonder if he put on that hat again.

Another nightmare race for Risi. So why didn't they want Bruni and Vilander? Beretta outside of being quick at Sebring hasn't been very clean on track or that fast. And Malucelli is not consistent enough. This cant be what they were expecting with the year off to find funds for a car only to have the drivers do there best to knock all the wheels and wing mirrors off. AF Corse and Risi seem off. How can the Ferrari get away with the gaping hole in its splitter that is a supposed "update". do they have that much downforce?

[Purist]

There are plenty of people who HATE changing the on-track results after the race. That's just a reality, and a lot of them, if you tried to argue with them about it, would tell you, "I don't care!"

Personally, I don't like the idea of changing the on-track result. Part of the problem in the final laps is that there may not be time left to assess the situation, and then assess the standard penalty through pit lane. Also, you normally have three laps to serve the penalty. In addition, rightly or wrongly, the intensity is going to tick up at the end of the race. You don't want to discourage good racing, nor give drivers the impression that getting penalized is inevitable.

One thing that would help a lot of this stuff, though certainly not all of it, is to consistently crack down on blocking. Trying to counteract blocking frequently leads to some of the most aggressive attempts at overtaking maneuvers, because the guy in front can, theoretically, make it physically impossible to pull off a "clean" pass. Defensive driving to that extreme, well, I can't consider it to be actual racing anymore when that stage is reached.

EDIT: I'm sure that the Ferrari's aero is VERY effective. It has the lowest-profile front end of any of the GTs. Vilander would probably be good, but if I'm not mistaken, Bruni has proven to be at least somewhat error-prone. Malucelli needs time to mature; I don't think he's been in the top ranks for very long.

[Maelochs]

Purist: blocking can be penalized, but so can ramming. There was absolutely no blocking involved in the Brisco/Cosmo incident. Cosmo was going straight and got hit from behind.

Yes the intensity of the racing rises as the end nears, but should the rules be suspended? That seems stupid. If it is two laps from the end and a car has held me off with skill and speed through the whole race, I get a free pass at the end and get to ram him aside? How can that make sense.

As for drivers being scared to race at the end because they might get penalized, it goes back to, Why should the rules be different at the end? Shouldn’t the drivers use more Skill, not more force, late in the race? Sure, if a driver goes for it and tries to drive at 101 percent and goes off, that is unintentional. But the Other Guy’s race is ruined. How can there be no penalty?

The whole point of penalties, really, is to scare drivers into not being too stupid or too enthusiastic. What you are saying is, “Penalties work, so we shouldn’t call them late in the race.”

That’s how you get Rolex and CTCC. Remember the Rolex race before the last one(Mid-O?), where only one clean pass for the lead was made, and the rest were bump-and-runs? Is that where ALMS wants to go?

If not, then call penalties all the time. No “Have at it, boys” period at the end of the race.

Sure, call blocking. Call Everything, because whatever you don’t call, drivers will do. Why not?

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

If anyone finds any video of the incident, let me know.

Here's the last 4 minutes, happens at the 40second mark in the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY0FFHpZ6rA

[Purist]

Maelochs, you misunderstand. I'm not saying that stuff shouldn't be called, but I also know there is a balance to be found, as with just about anything. Humans are imperfect, and racing incidents occur. Rules, or rules enforcement, that can't acknowledge these, are guaranteed to fail at delivering the desired results. Being either too lax or too harsh WILL have negative consequences, without at doubt.

(I haven't found the ideal solution either. I'm all ears if you do.)

And I know blocking had nothing to do with the LMP2 incident, but it has contributed substantially to the apparent aggression level that we see on many racetracks around the world. So, while not directly preventing what happened yesterday, clamping down on certain behaviors that foment the more aggressive driving will indirectly help reduced incidents of many types overall.

I guess, part of what I'm getting at is that we should be more concentrated on curtailing other kinds of bad on-track conduct, so that we aren't having to adjudicate as many incidents of contact in the first place.

[Ephaeton]

first of all, be consistent. Not much to ask for. Ignore when a racing incident occurs, and police it the same.
I don't think it's about the rules, or lack of rules enforcement.
It's the inconsistency that makes racers gamble, IMHO.