[WEC] The ACO's Safety Car 'Overhaul'

[Gerard C]

Well, they just replace squirrel by coyote I've been told. Or yellow dog.

[RL17]

Can’t say I ever noticed SZs at Classic

Any problems and it’s normally been bc a single SC or a red flag for the short sessions

[Gerard C]

Before Covid they had an agreement with Coyote instead of the heavy oboard system with a dedicated screen. They cant argue that all cars are much slower in LMC grids because some are still very fast.
https://www.facebook.com/LeMansClass...008263/?type=3 In this case Coyote is a company, not a poor joke. Still, there must be some squirrels left in the forest…

[ederss7]

IMO there's no reason to have safety car anymore. With some tweaks, FCY deals with any intervention race direction needs. A big flaw SC has and no one seems to notice, I've seen this happen several times: cars running at high speeds to get back to the SC train. Just to name an example: in 2010 the leading LMP2 got stuck on the gravel during a SC. What happened when it joined the track? The driver simply drove at high speed to get back behind the next group of cars. It makes no sense.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by ederss7

IMO there's no reason to have safety car anymore. With some tweaks, FCY deals with any intervention race direction needs. A big flaw SC has and no one seems to notice, I've seen this happen several times: cars running at high speeds to get back to the SC train. Just to name an example: in 2010 the leading LMP2 got stuck on the gravel during a SC. What happened when it joined the track? The driver simply drove at high speed to get back behind the next group of cars. It makes no sense.

Tell me you've never worked trackside without telling you've never worked trackside.

Marshals will always need (and need to know) that the cars are all grouped on-track if they are doing more significant repair/clean-up tasks. Do you expect these to happen while cars are spread out on track? Don't forget the cars are still doing lethal speeds, even under FCY.

Your example (rightly) points out a flaw with how safety cars are currently implemented, but that can be alleviated with tighter rules on catching up or unlapping under safety cars.

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Tell me you've never worked trackside without telling you've never worked trackside.

Marshals will always need (and need to know) that the cars are all grouped on-track if they are doing more significant repair/clean-up tasks. Do you expect these to happen while cars are spread out on track? Don't forget the cars are still doing lethal speeds, even under FCY.

Your example (rightly) points out a flaw with how safety cars are currently implemented, but that can be alleviated with tighter rules on catching up or unlapping under safety cars.

Yes, that's why I said "with some tweaks". You can get around the issues you mentioned. Force everyone to go really slow. They can do that. Also, it's a very long circuit. You don't need to group cars. Of course it's not ideal, but you can make it work.
You can even create a system to prevent cars having advantage through slow zones. Race direction can monitor everything these days.

[Akrapovic]

The accident we just witnessed at Monza demonstrates why full SCs are still required. You could not clear that under a FCY.

[ederss7]

Screenshot from 2017 race. Track had to be cleaned; crash barriers needed fix, trucks drove out of the pit lane until the first chicane. No safety car deployed, only slow zones. At Le Mans you don't need safety cars anymore. You need some changes to make it right. It would make marshals work more complex, but not impossible.

[Aysedasi]

I think you have to accept that not everyone agrees with you.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Screenshot from 2017 race. Track had to be cleaned; crash barriers needed fix, trucks drove out of the pit lane until the first chicane. No safety car deployed, only slow zones. At Le Mans you don't need safety cars anymore. You need some changes to make it right. It would make marshals work more complex, but not impossible.

I can find you screenshots from 2010 where cars were full throttle through yellow zones with marshals on track. Just because it happened, doesn't make it acceptable.

Also there's a LOT less debris in that photo than yesterdays Aston accident, which spread mess across the entire width of the circuit.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I can find you screenshots from 2010 where cars were full throttle through yellow zones with marshals on track. Just because it happened, doesn't make it acceptable.

This. I think he who did some marshalling, any time/country/track/series would agree with you. Not forgetting that (may be Monaco apart) those people are pure enthousiasts some times investing their own money in racing too while remaining humans.

[joeb]

At Mosport in the IMSA race one of the BMW's got a penalty for reckless driving while safety vehicles were on track. the driver was speeding up to catch up to the end of the line after getting a wave by, and was came upon a track vehicle around a blind corner. Ended up beaching the car in the gravel after taking avoiding action.

I think this is relevant to the discussion of safety cars because even if you have rules in place it doesn't mean the drivers will follow them, and you have to make sure the marshals are safe no matter what. This was just one car, but there could have be 5 or 10 doing the same thing and how could the marshals get their work done if they are always having to look over shoulder to see if somebody is about to lose it while catching up to the queue?

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by joeb

At Mosport in the IMSA race one of the BMW's got a penalty for reckless driving while safety vehicles were on track. the driver was speeding up to catch up to the end of the line after getting a wave by, and was came upon a track vehicle around a blind corner.//This was just one car, but there could have be 5 or 10 doing the same thing and how could the marshals get their work done if they are always having to look over shoulder to see if somebody is about to lose it while catching up to the queue?

I see your point and the example chosen is "perfect". But on the drivers' defense I'd say that it is in the regulation and during any briefing of any race that in case of SC you have to promptly join the queue. Some drivers do it safely while others don't. At amateur level we've been asking for heavy penalties to be given to any driver overtaking under SC or YF finding this totally unacceptable. With the modern time keeping systems monitoring the batch sector by sector its easy peasy. Just a matter of will and a question of common sense I'd say.

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I think you have to accept that not everyone agrees with you.

Why do you think Im not accepting it? Just sharing my opinion. I don't know how you would think that.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I can find you screenshots from 2010 where cars were full throttle through yellow zones with marshals on track. Just because it happened, doesn't make it acceptable.

Also there's a LOT less debris in that photo than yesterdays Aston accident, which spread mess across the entire width of the circuit.

Of course SC it's better in those incidents. And that screenshot was just a random example. Turns out Im watching that race right now.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by joeb

At Mosport in the IMSA race one of the BMW's got a penalty for reckless driving while safety vehicles were on track. the driver was speeding up to catch up to the end of the line after getting a wave by, and was came upon a track vehicle around a blind corner. Ended up beaching the car in the gravel after taking avoiding action.

I think this is relevant to the discussion of safety cars because even if you have rules in place it doesn't mean the drivers will follow them, and you have to make sure the marshals are safe no matter what. This was just one car, but there could have be 5 or 10 doing the same thing and how could the marshals get their work done if they are always having to look over shoulder to see if somebody is about to lose it while catching up to the queue?

You police this by doing what N24/NLS does. Send a driver immediately home and revoke their license. NLS rarely has issues like this despite having 5 times more drivers, almost all of which are amateurs.

The solution is simple. Have draconian punishments for safety violations like this. Park a factory BMW for a day and ban the driver for a few races and you can bet these violations will dry up faster than...something not appropriate to post here.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

You police this by doing what N24/NLS does. Send a driver immediately home and revoke their license. NLS rarely has issues like this despite having 5 times more drivers, almost all of which are amateurs.

The solution is simple. Have draconian punishments for safety violations like this. Park a factory BMW for a day and ban the driver for a few races and you can bet these violations will dry up faster than...something not appropriate to post here.

I think that is a workable solution, but I bet the drivers will protest!

[Gerard C]

Ho no,you'd be surprised to see how many hate to be overtaken under SC or YF.Pros and amateurs. I quite agree with Akrapovic here. Not only its dangerous but more than unfair to say the least. The opinion of someone who does not appreciate the SC in general.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by joeb

I think that is a workable solution, but I bet the drivers will protest!

If they protest, extend the ban

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Why do you think Im not accepting it? Just sharing my opinion. I don't know how you would think that.

My apologies then. But as you had twice told us that SC's are no longer necessary, you seemed pretty fixed on that opinion. But it is your opinion and I accept you're entitled to it.

[tomcug]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...r-2024-season/
Let's make the rules more complicated for no reason

[Adam43]

Not instead of, but before SC. Not sure on that one.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by tomcug

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...r-2024-season/
Let's make the rules more complicated for no reason

I think this is sensible. All options are available to race control: FCY, immediate safety car, VSC followed by SC. And slow zones at LM.

The unnecessary complication comes from closing the pit lane and then forcing competitors to take emergency service.

[RL17]

All options? Why not just have a VSC to possibly sort problem and get in with racing.

Just going to have most cars in pits during VSC surely as they’re all bunched up soon afterwards

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by RL17

All options? Why not just have a VSC to possibly sort problem and get in with racing.

Just going to have most cars in pits during VSC surely as they’re all bunched up soon afterwards

My understanding is they do have a VSC and then get on with racing - this is what the FCY is.

The VSC is for when they are going to a SC (usually because they need a gap in traffic to work). The VSC before hand neutralises the circuit to allow an immediate response, and then they move to SC to do the major work.

The FCY and back to green still exists.

[Steve McQ]

Exactly this. Direct to SC always creates some minutes of hazard with guys still going at almost racing pace to close the gap with the SC on track while they are not fully aware of what's going on. Always a bit dangerous.