Historic replicas. A sensible discussion please

[simon drabble]

Terry broadly most people would agree but I think many feel that a car that has been continually raced will end up like Trigger's Broom (especially single seater and sports racers) and therefore the difference between a continuation and real car is at best blurred, however unlike the cars discussed here ther main point is that they conform to a predefined spec. Well they are supposed to.....

[gt917]

Originally Posted by Julian Bronson

I was not refering to any one car as i dont know who you are hiding behind a pseudonym i remember your car well and comlimented you on the attension to detail making the car look like a 917 if you had taken the time making it handle like a 917 you may have done more the 200 yards at cholmondley.

....... and if you had bothered to come and find out what really happened you would have known that it was NOT a car fault.

Another cheap jibe with a lack of the facts.

[Peter Mallett]

I believe the OP who penned the title included the words "sensible discussion". Seems to me that using words such as

Another cheap jibe with a lack of the facts

. is somewhat wide of the title.

Can I respectfully suggest that rather than being all defensive you take a step back and perhaps use less emotive language?

Thanks in advance.

[gt917]

Mogger,

I agree with you and have always entered my cars as replicas.

It,s the clubs who do the printing of the programmes, time and results sheets that should be held accountable for those errors.

Could be confusing for spectators to put letters beside the race numbers as often there are class letters being used already.

[Lancsbreaker]

Peter - as someone who has no "interest" in this debate - apart from having supplied RichT's dad, Anthony, with parts for his replicas from my scrapyard in years gone by, I have to say that my reaction on reading Mr Bronson's comment about the 917's handling causing a problem at Cholmondley was that it was a cheap, childish crack, unworthy of the debate. Mr Bronson may be a fine, upstanding chap - but he came across as a prat...IMHO. I don't know GT917 either, and think maybe he should have resisted the diversion of his thread form the question he originally asked, but I guess that was his call. Still doesn't mean people should have a pop at him......

As has been said, everyone has an opinion - this is mine

[Al Weyman]

I know GT917 and he is a very nice friendly guy! BTW referring to RickT's second and equally informative post I do remember that series for replicas I was standing on the pit wall at Snett when a GT40 Clone lost it big time and was sadly destroyed, I think it was on its maiden outing as well. What happened to that series because thats whats needed here another one like that where all these cars can race I would watch replicas or not. I also saw a replica T70 at Brands and that was pretty damned good as well and as was said an opportunity to see this type of car that wouldnt have been at a clubble meet and would normally require something like a hugely expensive ticket to Goodwood. Get together you owners and recreate this as there is a gap in the market and this would be so much better than yet another saloon clone series. Hey to add a bit of interest you could have prizes and maybe extra points for the closest to original spec cars.

[simon drabble]

To be honest Al I really cant think seeing a load of kit cars is a crowd puller. I dont want to be harsh but it seems a dose of reality is required.
Frankly a plastic D Type with a 4.2 engine or a 917 with a lot of 911 running gear is hardly reflective of the real thing. It would be like copying the Mona Lisa with a felt tip pen.
Let 750 motor club and others put on meetings for them but do not kid yourselves there are in any way a true tribute to the real deals.

[John Turner]

Wow, I go away for a day, and all hell breaks loose. This must be one of the fastest growing threads in the forum. Maybe some carelessly chosen (or deliberately contentious!) words and a bit of overreaction (yes, some may disagree with that too) but this subject does generate a great deal of passion. I knew I should have split the thread since we are no closer to dealing with the original post!

In truth, I, too have strong views about replicas, continuations, tributes etc. We should not deny them the right to exist or race; indeed with the very considerable value of originals, most people will only ever experience owning the shape/sound of their youth with a replica. However, I don't personally want to see them sharing a grid with the genuine historics, whilst at the same time more than happy to promote a series that specifically caters for them. It's horses for courses, guys.

We've had several threads on this subject, and I remember trying to categorise the cars in a lengthy post some years ago, and regurgitating it a couple of years ago when the subject cropped up, as it does often, again. May have to inflict it upon you again!

[simon drabble]

John we need to be careful to differentiate. The original question was where to race replica's and the answer was very clear from many people - if it complies to HTP papers then pretty much wherever the originals are racing. The Aston project car comes to mind that races in the 6 hour.
However a car that shares the same silouette and not much else has no place at a historic meeting (along with original cars that clearly break the HTP spec laid down by the manufacturer in period).
Sadly some seem to take offence - this is not a personal sleight merely common sense. If you want to compete at more prestigeous meetings build a continuation/replica car that complies! It really could not be more simple!!!

[terence]

Are there any club's catering for non original type cars? I wonder if indeed there are enough to create a grid?

[John Turner]

I'm not sure that I am saying otherwise, Simon, although I probably simplified it. 'My' list was more specific, and I'm itching to dig it out again! However, maybe there were too many wide ranging questions in the original post that one or two them have been submerged.

[terence]

Are there any club's catering for non original type cars? I wonder if indeed there are enough to create a grid?

John,a man after my own heart.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Are there any club's catering for non original type cars? I wonder if indeed there are enough to create a grid?

Yes, and there are!

[johngee]

But what would be the harm if, as was previously discussed in this thread, there were racing opportunities for the 'non compliant' cars, who probably don't want the costs and hassles of the prestige historic meetings/series anyway. Away fom the purists (on this thread and elsewhere), they're not likely to be racing in front of an 'informed' audience and just want to take the cars out for a 'blast' and have some fun with each other.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

To be honest Al I really cant think seeing a load of kit cars is a crowd puller.

But who said anything about it being a crowd-puller? Let's be honest, how many club racing events are crowd pullers? Is a series full of Fiestas, or Fiat Puntos, ever going to be a crowd-puller? I don't think so. I reckon the vast majority of spectators at any club meet are generally connected in some way with the people involved at that meeting.

Just about all of us on here who race, pay handsomely to do so - it's our hobby, and we do it for ourselves, not for the benefit of a handful of spectators. Why should we care if the series we choose is a crowd-puller or not? The organisers and circuit owners don't seem to care do they?

I've been reading this thread with interest up to now, and I'm prompted to comment after reading RickT's posts, as I own one of his company's Gemini cars. It's in race trim, but I've never raced it, partly because I've never really found a suitable place to do so. I'm under no illusions about the car - it's a kit car, simple as that. Apart from it's basic shape, it bears little resemblance to the Elva that inspired it.

But so what? Does that mean I shouldn't be able to race it somewhere? I think there's a lot of snobbery about when it comes to kit cars, replicas, evocations or whatever you want to call them today. Granted, cars like mine don't belong in a 'historic' series, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a series for such cars if the demand is there - and it matters not one jot whether it's a crowd pleaser!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Paul D

But who said anything about it being a crowd-puller? Let's be honest, how many club racing events are crowd pullers? Is a series full of Fiestas, or Fiat Puntos, ever going to be a crowd-puller? I don't think so. I reckon the vast majority of spectators at any club meet are generally connected in some way with the people involved at that meeting.

Just about all of us on here who race, pay handsomely to do so - it's our hobby, and we do it for ourselves, not for the benefit of a handful of spectators. Why should we care if the series we choose is a crowd-puller or not? The organisers and circuit owners don't seem to care do they?


Does that mean I shouldn't be able to race it somewhere? I think there's a lot of snobbery about when it comes to kit cars, replicas, evocations or whatever you want to call them today. Granted, cars like mine don't belong in a 'historic' series, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a series for such cars if the demand is there - and it matters not one jot whether it's a crowd pleaser!

Agreed! You've said, far more comprehensively, pretty much what I wanted to say ----- if I could type quicker!

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Paul D

I've been reading this thread with interest up to now, and I'm prompted to comment after reading RickT's posts, as I own one of his company's Gemini cars. It's in race trim, but I've never raced it, partly because I've never really found a suitable place to do so. I'm under no illusions about the car - it's a kit car, simple as that. Apart from it's basic shape, it bears little resemblance to the Elva that inspired it.

But so what? Does that mean I shouldn't be able to race it somewhere? I think there's a lot of snobbery about when it comes to kit cars, replicas, evocations or whatever you want to call them today. Granted, cars like mine don't belong in a 'historic' series, but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a series for such cars if the demand is there - and it matters not one jot whether it's a crowd pleaser!

so where, in your mind, would a suitable place be to race it?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by johngee

But what would be the harm if, as was previously discussed in this thread, there were racing opportunities for the 'non compliant' cars, who probably don't want the costs and hassles of the prestige historic meetings/series anyway. Away fom the purists (on this thread and elsewhere), they're not likely to be racing in front of an 'informed' audience and just want to take the cars out for a 'blast' and have some fun with each other.

No harm at all, John. Nothing wrong with any of that at all.

[Paul D]

Well, that's the point isn't it Simon? I'm not sure if there is currently a suitable place to race it. But what I'm suggesting is that, if the demand is there from owners of such cars, why shouldn't there be somewhere to race them?

[simon drabble]

it depends how you define suitable. If you mean HSCC, The Classic etc then I think it is unlikely, however surely Sideways race at Spa is suitable and that could maybe be spun off into a small series to tack onto a series like CSCC or similar?
Of course you are eligible for Johngee's 360 support race.
Out of interest what type of series have you previously decided where unsuitable?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Of course you are eligible for Johngee's 360 support race.

Thank you Simon. I was trying to make that point but perhaps being too subtle
As we are having HRDC races as well, I don't see a problem in mixing .... just not in the same races!

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

it depends how you define suitable. If you mean HSCC, The Classic etc then I think it is unlikely

Agree with you on that - and I never suggested it would have to be a series from a club associated more with 'historics'.

To be honest Simon, I haven't looked that much recently regarding a suitable 'home' for the car to race - I bought it a few years ago, and at that time, the only suitable series I could find was the 750 MC kit car series - but on looking at the regs as they then were, I realised the car would probably not be competitive within the class structure.

Since then, I've been racing a couple of other, more 'traditional' cars, so the Gemini is languishing in the corner, awaiting its destiny!

But if a suitable series existed, then I may be tempted out with it - and is there really anything wrong with that idea?

[simon drabble]

as series are demand driven I fear the lack of series speaks for its self......

what do you normally race?

[johngee]

Herein lies the problem Paul. As soon as you talk about a 'series' you then come up against the issues of eligibility, registration and finding an organising club. I think that if you can 'guarantee' a grid of about 20 suitable cars, there's one or two clubs (like 360MRC ) who would 'slot in' a race in an existing meeting.

[Paul D]

Agreed again. It is, of course, up to the relevant clubs to decide if there is enough demand for such a series. I don't know if there is - I'm simply suggesting that, if there is, then why not? I see no harm in it if people want to do it.

For the last few years I've been racing with the CSCC, initially in an early model 3 series BMW, and more recently in a TR7 V8. I like the format the CSCC provide and I'm happy racing with them - hence this is partly why I haven't really pursued anything else with the Gemini.