[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[bathurst77]

i dont understand why audi AND porsche are jumping in. They are both part of VAG, seems like VAG will be spending multi millions competing against themselves.
Unless they are going to have one engineering team make a single PU badged porsche for one team and audi for another.

Ilmor and cosworth both (and others) all had engines badged as other car companies engiens.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

i dont understand why audi AND porsche are jumping in. They are both part of VAG, seems like VAG will be spending multi millions competing against themselves.

It's comparatively common for VAG to do that though.

VW actively encourages inter-brand rivalry on the basis that Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini and Porsche compete in open markets, and should be prepared to prove themselves in open competition to the benefit of all 'breeds'.

Remember - they are not entering for the purposes of competing, but to promote the brands. They feel that both brands can benefit from the exposure.

Volkswagen Group CEO Herbert Diess: "If you look at the major sporting events or events in the world, it's the case that in motorsport, it's really only Formula 1 that counts and is becoming increasingly differentiated. If you do motorsport, you should do Formula 1 as that's where the impact is greatest."

[ArnageWRC]

Disappointing news.....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ArnageWRC

Disappointing news.....

Why is it disappointing?

[crmalcolm]

Audi's marketing team haven't taken long to get their digs in at Mercedes.

'Rings are the new stars'

'This is the first time in more than a decade that a Formula 1 power train will be built in Germany'

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Audi's marketing team haven't taken long to get their digs in at Mercedes.

'Rings are the new stars'

'This is the first time in more than a decade that a Formula 1 power train will be built in Germany'

And Mercedes Social Media Team (as expected) are right on the ball with a response:

'The vehicle shown is a concept vehicle that is not available as a production model. ?'

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ArnageWRC

Disappointing news.....

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Remember - they are not entering for the purposes of competing, but to promote the brands. They feel that both brands can benefit from the exposure.

on one hand, even if its just a branding exercise aimed at benefiting from F1's potential 'greener' platform and/or its increased popularity im ok with it. we need these companies to think and act differently and if F1 can help them to offer more sustainably based road cars then awesome right?

on the other hand, the not so subtle take overs/rebranding of privateer teams, the risk of what happens to those privateers when the backing stops, the increased influence of manufacturers on the series etc...we have been down this road before and 'disappointing' would be a fair description of the previous manu era right?

hopefully this time around, the budget cap framework can keep spending in check...however for these companies to start making significant changes to the products they offer, massive spending in many areas is required so begs the question is F1 the right place for this spending to happen?

early days of course.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

And Mercedes Social Media Team (as expected) are right on the ball with a response:

'The vehicle shown is a concept vehicle that is not available as a production model. ?'

Very good. A reference to the Dakar social media posts.

Just social having fun in both cases.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Why is it disappointing?

It’s I don’t want them to do F1. I want them elsewhere.

Fair enough, but they’re just doing what’s best for them.

[Aysedasi]

I'm disappointed too.....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by ArnageWRC

Disappointing news.....

Originally Posted by Adam43

It’s I don’t want them to do F1. I want them elsewhere.

Fair enough, but they’re just doing what’s best for them.

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm disappointed too.....

Of the five stages of grief... Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance, I am on the last stage. As I have had plenty of time to process this outcome. We knew years ago that this was going to happen as the goals set out for the 2026 power unit specifications explicitly targeted this. Not Porsche or Audi by name, but to bring new "manufactures" onboard such as them (with them standing in the wings watching hopefully and pushing and pulling to ensure the regulations fit their needs)

I would have preferred more support for old school Williams or even a dysfunctional Minardi class of teams. Teams that really existed purely for the love of racing. But unfortunately those days are long gone for F1. Just look at how much the existing teams are trying to stop Andretti. He is clearly not welcome. Dilution is part of the opposition, but Andretti just doesn't fit the mold of a Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, Porsche or Audi.

But as a long time Honda and Porsche fan, I am sad to see Honda go, but excited to see Porsche show up. Even if... the regulations are generally spec ICE engines and while the electric side will be technologically advanced, it will just not quite be the same as old school simple combustion engines that most of us grew up loving.

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Of the five stages of grief... Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance, I am on the last stage.
…

Richard

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What i cannot grasp is if Porsche are going to do it why is RedBull power train being set up and serious people being hired? Porsche will surely do everything in house and not sure contract their name to a UK engineering company? For me it makes no sense

Like I said...... makes no sense

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Like I said...... makes no sense

Nothing like reading your own post and then replying with how much you agree with yourself. At least you are not arguing with yourself.

Reports are that the Porsche/Red Bull deal are at a standstill. Plenty of articles on the topic. It sounds like Red Bull wants to maintain control, or at a minimum keep their existing culture/style of working in place. Most news articles are giving a public message from Red Bull to Porsche "take our offer or walk away". It seems to be in the hands of Porsche to blink or not.

Given the arrangement is 50/50 I would expect Red Bull to be doing as they are in that they will continue to build up RBPT. They have had years of being at the mercy of power unit manufactures and not feeling in control of their destiny. They probably see little value in joining up with Porsche and creating a potential future issue by re-creating the power unit issue all over again.

Imagine at some future date in which Porsche decided to leave the sport. They might sell their 50% share back to Red Bull. But if the power unit is done fully "in house" by Porsche, might that not be part of the 50/50 deal? Meaning Porsche could take it all with them. What type of facilities, staff, etc. might Red Bull have at the end of a Porsche exit if structured like that? Nothing?? Now if there is a fully staffed group at RBPT then any potential "buyback" by Red Bull means they could walk away as a mostly fully functioning manufacture with their own power unit division.

I am not saying Porsche will not bring anything to the table from a technology perspective. I think they will and I think Red Bull probably needs someone like Porsche right now. Particularly on the electric side. But Red Bull is thinking long term in their arrangements.

And what if this Porsche deal doesn't materialize? RBR can't be in a position of scrambled to go it solo or to find another partner who might feel they have RBR over a barrel the closer we get to 2026. The right course for them is to build out RBPT and if they can partner with someone like Porsche as part of RBPT and/or RBR then great, but it would need to be a partnership.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Like I said...... makes no sense

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. Not surprising as it’s hardly an original model for such a project.

Anyway it seems Porsche thought they were buying half of RBT when they were actually only being offered half of RBPT.

[Mike Harte]

Something else has happened in the background since the proposal was aired recently in that the board of VAG are said to be considering spinning Porsche out of the group as a stand alone entity, with it's shares distributed via a stock exchange offering.

[peebee2]

I think that pre-dates the idea of them entering F1 (this time) though Mike.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Nothing like reading your own post and then replying with how much you agree with yourself. At least you are not arguing with yourself.

Reports are that the Porsche/Red Bull deal are at a standstill. Plenty of articles on the topic. It sounds like Red Bull wants to maintain control, or at a minimum keep their existing culture/style of working in place. Most news articles are giving a public message from Red Bull to Porsche "take our offer or walk away". It seems to be in the hands of Porsche to blink or not.

Given the arrangement is 50/50 I would expect Red Bull to be doing as they are in that they will continue to build up RBPT. They have had years of being at the mercy of power unit manufactures and not feeling in control of their destiny. They probably see little value in joining up with Porsche and creating a potential future issue by re-creating the power unit issue all over again.

Imagine at some future date in which Porsche decided to leave the sport. They might sell their 50% share back to Red Bull. But if the power unit is done fully "in house" by Porsche, might that not be part of the 50/50 deal? Meaning Porsche could take it all with them. What type of facilities, staff, etc. might Red Bull have at the end of a Porsche exit if structured like that? Nothing?? Now if there is a fully staffed group at RBPT then any potential "buyback" by Red Bull means they could walk away as a mostly fully functioning manufacture with their own power unit division.

I am not saying Porsche will not bring anything to the table from a technology perspective. I think they will and I think Red Bull probably needs someone like Porsche right now. Particularly on the electric side. But Red Bull is thinking long term in their arrangements.

And what if this Porsche deal doesn't materialize? RBR can't be in a position of scrambled to go it solo or to find another partner who might feel they have RBR over a barrel the closer we get to 2026. The right course for them is to build out RBPT and if they can partner with someone like Porsche as part of RBPT and/or RBR then great, but it would need to be a partnership.

Richard

As far as I am aware it’s OK to express an opinion. I just don’t get it, Porsche have huge resource and ability - why would they?

[P38 in workshop]

I'm sure I read somewhere a few days ago that Honda might be regretting leaving and Red Bull could be tempted to stick with the devil they know,and do rather well with.Some of them might have long enough memories to recall the Footwork boat anchors.I still have difficulty understanding the evolution of the VAG thinking regarding which brand represents them in which category.Will they return to WEC?Will the move away from IC engines continue apace?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

As far as I am aware it’s OK to express an opinion. I just don’t get it, Porsche have huge resource and ability - why would they?

Because they are too cheap to do their own Formula 1 team and engine in-house? It's fairly straightforward. Even with the significantly reduced cost compared to 5-10 years ago (now a budget cap on both chassis and power unit development respectively), Porsche are still umming and arring about entering F1 as a partner let alone as a works team and works engine.

A Red Bull Powertrains power unit with support and branding from Porsche in a Red Bull car is not only cheaper it also has more likelihood to win the short term.

Hopefully Honda will come to their senses and put their sticker on the Red Bull Powertrains unit instead. It will still free up capacity at Sakura for EV development, and Honda can still do the ERS side and get their learning done that way.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Because they are too cheap to do their own Formula 1 team and engine in-house? It's fairly straightforward. Even with the significantly reduced cost compared to 5-10 years ago (now a budget cap on both chassis and power unit development respectively), Porsche are still umming and arring about entering F1 as a partner let alone as a works team and works engine.

A Red Bull Powertrains power unit with support and branding from Porsche in a Red Bull car is not only cheaper it also has more likelihood to win the short term.

Hopefully Honda will come to their senses and put their sticker on the Red Bull Powertrains unit instead. It will still free up capacity at Sakura for EV development, and Honda can still do the ERS side and get their learning done that way.

How much do you reckon they spent on WEC?….

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

How much do you reckon they spent on WEC?….

I'd guess about a third of an F1 campaign.Maybe less.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

How much do you reckon they spent on WEC?….

A very small fraction of a proper F1 development, race and activation budget.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

How much do you reckon they spent on WEC?….

20 million euros for two cars over a full FIA WEC season


(F1 is $140 million per team)

[Casper]

The whole idea of RBPT seems a bit weird when looked at in terms of the future. To take on a partner such as Honda or Porsche does not give RB autonomy if the partnership goes south and who pays who for 50% of the IP that went into it. In all likelihood the partner is being brought in because RBTP does not have the ability to design and develop a new PU and in the event of a divorce would take a lot more than 50% with them leaving RB no better off. In the end a partnership of the type being proposed by RBTP with Porsche does not give RB any guarantee of independence over the long term and it seems a strange way of going about producing a PU. Mercedes on the other hand did it in house which is a totally different thing altogether.