Pizzonia lashes out at Jaguar

[Onlooker]

Originally posted by nkh
Where can I find the passion measurings of F1 drivers?

Trulli "waving" Rubens through and ionto the poduim was a good indication of the hunger level there and didn't Renault make the required adjustment to the team to compensate for it.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by nkh
ah... you won't get the jaguar team to give you solid proof, but I thought it was the general understanding that the two jaguars / stewarts arn't equal most of the time.

actually, getting solid proof of anything in F1 is quite difficult...

This whole "unequal car" stuff just makes me laugh at the utter stupidity of the (lack of) logic.

Now, stay with me here, each team has a T-car, don't they. Which bits do they put on it? The fast ones in case the "Number 1" driver prangs, or the slow ones in case the "Number 2" driver lunches his car.

Get it so far?

If you are telling me that teams spend 100's of millions of $$ in a year and only make one set of fast bits for one car, you are on some serious drugs indeed.

Must have been fun in the pits when Webber had a moment in Practice last year -

"Quick, Antonio has binned it...take all the fast bits off the T-Car and make sure he does'nt see it..."

THINK about it...it's "grassy knoll" stuff

[Adam43]

I am the first to backlash against conspiracy theories and always prefer an occam's razor approach. However in this case it is most likely that Jaguar doesn't produce an identical situation for it's drivers.

They don't do it to get at one driver, clearly. It comes from being Jaguar Racing! They, practically every year, produce a car that needs a lot of developing. A rushed development program is happening while the racing year has started. New parts are manufactured and are in short supply. One guy has to suffer and, yes, maybe the T car will suffer too.

And here is a real example. The new engine Webber had at Indy. It would have been daft to not let either driver have it, so they, understandably, gave it to Webber. It doesn't just happen with engines either...

It is a shame that, for some reason, this 'same cars' situation is held up as the be all and end all of a GP team. It never has been until the last few years. Why now. I'm sure there were (odd) times when Jones got better bits than Reuterman and Brabham better than Hulme (and maybe vise versa). They're still world champions.

As for whether Pizzonia should have said it, perhaps not , but I am sure it was true. I think it came from a little insecurity on his part.

As I say, this is no way detracts from Webber. He is still the one with full season's drive in a Williams next year.

[deeks6]

Sorry, can't go for it...especially at the start of the season when most pundits expected Pizza Boy to wipe his @rse with Webber.
As for Indy, Webber had soundly thrashed him in every race (and Qualifying) to that time so that was understandable. If that ONE occaision is what Pizzaman is whining about, then he is a bigger fool than I thought.

[Wrex]

Good post Adam, and a carefully place stab at Jag to boot

Developement parts hitting one car initially is'nt a new thing, or exclusive to Jaguar. Every team down the pit lane has and does try new parts on one car. I cant recall where at the moment, but I remember reading McLaren doing something similar last season.

The next thing I would point out is thay he was on average 1.4 seconds slower than Mark in Quals. Now tyres and Aero aside (I hardly think they were ever different) F1 cars dont get 1.4 seconds faster over a season let alone a few races. Was he driving Eddie Irvines car?

As for the T-Car, anyone care to find the result from those races Mark was in it? (or are we suggesting the T-Car was better too?)

Reality check - car differences aside, he was not in Marks league. Clearly he is quick (Williams testing has proved that), but for whatever reason he could'nt get a qualifying lap together, and rarely made up for it in races.

It seems we are full circle coming back to the point I made earlier

Originally posted by Wrex
The second thing, is even if true (and to a degree I think he is right), all potential employers are going to ask themselves the obvious question - Why? Why did they back Mark over Antonio? The truth to that answer does'nt do him any favours either.

Do I understand how he feels? Of course. Should he have said it, absolutley not.

As I mentioned he now looks silly (particularly after the race), is showing potential employers how he takes cheap shots at previous employers (that wont win him any friends), and in the end has got everyone asking themselves "Why did they get behind Mark and not you?"


The short answer, and the one every team down pit lane already knows, he's not as good as Mark Webber.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by deeks6
Sorry, can't go for it...especially at the start of the season when most pundits expected Pizza Boy to wipe his @rse with Webber.

Well they were wrong.

Originally posted by deeks6
As for Indy, Webber had soundly thrashed him in every race (and Qualifying) to that time so that was understandable. If that ONE occaision is what Pizzaman is whining about, then he is a bigger fool than I thought.

One example? Are you referring to my one example with the engine? Well that was this year and didn't even involve Pizzonia at all. It was just an example of a situation when a team, specifically Jaguar, had two different cars. Brazil 2002 is another, with Ferrari. These are examples of big differences, other less news worthy examples happen all the time.

I agree Pizzonia didn't perform anywhere near Webber's level. That doesn't mean what Pizzonia says is a lie. The two things (Webber's speed and different parts) are only related in a small way and as other's mention show that Webber soon fitted in and got the confidence of the team. Which is to his credit and the thing than means he is a driver I would want in my team. His pace in a Jaguar is difficult to assess (another stab?).

[GTRMagic]

So where is PizzaBoy's BMW-WilliamsF1 announcement for a seat in 2005?

I have seen Webber's, but curiously not Pizzonia's :confused:

[BootsOntheSide]

Stewart and Jaguar have never ran two cars at equal performance. What was it about 2003 that was so special that this would suddenly change?

[Wrex]

They have always favored the better driver too, why did'nt he point that out as well?

[Turbo_Era]

Interesting topic!

When Jaguar announced their line up for 2003, I thought (like many other people who follows the European Jr Formulas closely) that Pizzonia would completely dominate Webber... I guess I was wrong!

While Mark was just another driver, who had to go after sponsorship money in order to pay for a Minardi seat. Antonio, was a Williams test driver, who in many occasions was quicker than Montoya and Schumacher (even with more fuel), destined to greatness...

What went wrong then? In my humble opinion... It's all down to Ford. While Nikki Lauda dreamed big and demanded more investments to make the thing happen, Ford wanted to cut costs. So when Lauda was fired in favour of some cheaper low profile Ford people, Antonio (who had just been confirmed 24 hours earlier) got himself into something that many young drivers can't cope with: POLITICS!

From super star treatment at Williams to a problematic, under extreme pressure Jaguar seat! Not only him, but Webber was also in the hot seat! Both needing to prove they were worthy the money invested.

Of course Webber could handle the situation a lot better... he was after all, someone who worked hard to get in F1, someone that had much better PR skills and therefore knew how to be POLITICAL... A perfect fit for the low profile FORD executives who had replaced Lauda. Antonio, on the other hand, wasn't doing himself any favours during the unfortunate episode with the S-type jaguar...

I believe both drivers had the same equipment in the first races... but then, Webber, for the team, was clearly a man with strong work ethics while Antonio was just another spoiled Brazilian...

When the Jaguar Management started feeling the pressure after 2 races and no good results. Something really needed to improve, maybe they could concentrate in 1 car, blame 1 of the drives for poor performance...

So no wonder the rumours surrounding Antonio's fate would surface after the Brazilian GrandPrix.

Webber wasn't only cheaper... he was quick too! And political enough to build the team around him. Antonio, at that moment, would never be treated equally again.

If I believe Antonio is still quick and destined to greatness???

Quick... YES! Destined to greatness? Not sure! He needs an opportunity and couple of races to settle down... after that we can get it better assessed!

T.

[Turbo_Era]

Equal equipment and T-Car... Curiously, the only time Antonio was quicker than Mark was using Mark's T-car in the British GP.

[Wrex]

Great opening post T, not only did you give a well balanced post, but you also added something new to a 9 page discussion.

Welcome to Ten-Tenths

[Turbo_Era]

Thanks Wrex. Just my opinion, not anything new really.

How good Webber is everybody already knows! Ask Sir Frank Williams

How good Antonio is... hard to answer! Up to Sir Frank Williams, Sam Michael, Patrick Head and Mario Theissen to give him a chance.

[Wrex]

I'm not a huge fan of Pizzonia, but as we saw with Anthony Davidson, 1 or 2 races is not enough to judge him on (this season).

Do we know with any certainty if Ralf is back for Hungary?

[Kicking-back]

Ralf's fitness or otherwise will be determined in the week before the race.

[Glen]

He won't be back then - he'd be mad to risk it. Unfortunately for Pizzonia, I'm pretty sure the Williams will struggle at Hungary. Renault, BAR, McLaren and Ferrari all have as good, if not better, chances on that circuit and Pizzoni might struggle to get points at all.

[nkh]

Originally posted by deeks6
This whole "unequal car" stuff just makes me laugh at the utter stupidity of the (lack of) logic.

Now, stay with me here, each team has a T-car, don't they. Which bits do they put on it? The fast ones in case the "Number 1" driver prangs, or the slow ones in case the "Number 2" driver lunches his car.

Get it so far?

If you are telling me that teams spend 100's of millions of $$ in a year and only make one set of fast bits for one car, you are on some serious drugs indeed.

Must have been fun in the pits when Webber had a moment in Practice last year -

"Quick, Antonio has binned it...take all the fast bits off the T-Car and make sure he does'nt see it..."

THINK about it...it's "grassy knoll" stuff

Every situation seams unlogical if you're being unlogical when explaining it... The reason why Jaguar (or any other team) can't make two equal cars isn't down to money, it's down to how fast the people at the factory can make the parts. Often there's only enough time to make one so it goes in the quicker drivers car (if he destroys it in the testing he'll revert back to the previous version og that part).

They don't do it to make one driver look bad, they do it to get maximum points from the limited avalible parts. I still don't understand why Jaguar wants the world to know that they'd rather race two old spec cars than one old spec and one improved, afterall if there's a problem with the new part then you still have the proven car in the race (Ferrari has done this). Everyone does it, it's the smart thing to do. Telling the world that you don't do it isn't so clever though.

Again, I'm not saying the cars are unequal because I don't like Webber and think that Pizzonia is the best driver ever. I have said before that I think that both of them have something to prove (Pizzonia has to prove that he can be fast in a race, he'll need race expirience to prove that. Webber has to prove that he's quicker than a rookie driver, he'll need a top driver to do that. Webber will probably gat that chance at Williams (unless they sign Pizzonia, which I very much doubt, they need someone who can race now not in a years time.. that's why they signed Webber). Webber is clearly closest of the two to get the 'top driver' lable). That's just my oppinion, you don't have to agree (and I'm sure you don't, just like you probably won't agree with my views on some danish drivers), but my oppinion isn't based on wether Pizzonia and Webber had equal cars when they were both at Jaguar.

The unequal cars doesn't take anything away from Webber, he earned the new spec's, but it does tell me that Jaguars politics with sacking their second drivers because of their performance probably isn't always justified (I wrote something about race expirience earlier too...).

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Wrex
They have always favored the better driver too, why did'nt he point that out as well?

How did they know which driver was better at the start of 2002? In Malaysia, Webber was outqualified by Pizzonia (who admittedly made a mistake in turn two, but he's not the only one there), and in Brazil the circumstances favoured Mark - who still crashed heavily, after a very near-miss which cost him time.

I'd forgotten that Pizzonia was in the spare for his impressive Silverstone run. bearng in mind hwo well mark went there this year, I suspect there was something fishy going on here.

It's noticable that most of the criticism of Pizzonia has come not from broad-minded racing experts, or people who've seen him race a lot, but from the Webber fanbase. Considering how pleasant, hard-working and friendly he is, it's strange that many of his fans seem to be the exact opposite.

[Kicking-back]

We don't know what went on inside the team.

Anything we've heard is second or third hand.

No-one will know for sure but I am fairly confident Webber is a better driver than Pizzonia.



Boots - you're a brave man taking on the Webber fans, and possibly a foolish man if you're taking on Wrex

[Tweed]

It's odd isn't it? Pizzonia had by far the better record in the junior formulae, but Webber's had a tougher ascendency through the ranks. Give Antonio another race or so (if he gets it) before telling him to go to the DTM or something (thought that was a bit premature).

[Kicking-back]

Pizzonia didn't have a FAR better record.

Webber was underfunded in F3, whereas Antonio was well-backed and took a title.

Pizzonia was erratic in F3000, though he managed a win.

Webber was a championship contender in F3000 and managed several wins.

At that time I'd have said Mark was the better prospect, an opinion I stick with now.

As to how good either of them ultimately are, I'm not sure!

[Minardi fan]

Jungle Boy can witter on all he likes. Sour grapes n all. I don't know why Williams didn't stick with Gene as the replacement - he impressed far more at Minardi than Pizzonia ever did at Jaguar, plus he has far more experience of the car.

[nkh]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
It's noticable that most of the criticism of Pizzonia has come not from broad-minded racing experts, or people who've seen him race a lot, but from the Webber fanbase.

That's what I don't get... Wouldn't it be better if Pizzonia really was the new Schumacher and Webber still beat him?

Saying that Webbers team mates are rubbish takes more away from him than Jaguars non-equal car situation (which it seams is a quite permanent situation).

[Kicking-back]

Exactly nkh.

It's in the best interests of Webber and Webber's fans to make out that Pizzonia is brilliant.

Knocking him only lessens their man's achievement.

[429CJ]

Pizzonia is average Brasilian driver of long string of average Brasilian drivers after Senna.