|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
13 Nov 2017, 16:48 (Ref:3780206) | #126 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,937
|
Quote:
Honest? No! For example when he lied to the FIA, and was forced to make an apology. Courteous? No. For example, when he went behind Mercedes' back to "clarify" that his team-mate should have his pole-time annulled. Where was the curtesy shown to his paymasters? Utterly straightforward? Not on your nelly. The above situation, going behind his team's back to try to get an advantage over Rosberg. Plus all the other mind tricks that he plays with his team-mates. As for being the best drive ever to be born in the UK, you really have to be laughing. He's not even the best of the rest! He bares no comparison with the likes of Jim Clark, Stirling Moss or even the ex-driver you call out, Jackie Stewart. Not forgetting other greats such as John Surtees, Mike Hawthorn, Piers Courage, James Hunt, Graham Hill, Nigel Mansell and the list goes on and on. |
|||
|
13 Nov 2017, 17:08 (Ref:3780211) | #127 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,977
|
well he isnt a saint (just a sportsperson) but surely his titles, wins, and pole numbers make him, by most metrics (i think win percentage per starts and win percentage over one season are where Clark is still ahead), the most successful British racing driver to have ever raced in F1.
far be it for me to say who anyone should like more, but objectively he is statistically, at the least either 1 or 2, one of the most successful British drivers ever. anyways, i dont want this post to come across as a LH apologist statement (as some of his behaviour has also given me pause - skipping the London event this year being at the top of my list)...but if the numbers are not the most important thing then are we not just devaluing all of the accomplishments of every driver in contention for the title of best British driver of all time? |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
13 Nov 2017, 17:26 (Ref:3780218) | #128 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5,937
|
Ah, but chilli, in motor racing success doesn't necessarily equate to driving greatness. For that to happen, there would have to be equality between the teams and their machinery, and that certainly hasn't happened in the last decade or two.
At certain periods, certain cars have been streets ahead of the competition, and for them it was always a race to be the best of the rest. And the latest Mercedes years have been the same, except in some exceptional races where for one reason or another, Mercedes didn't dominate. Acknowledged throughout the world as probably one of the best two or three drivers ever, Stirling Moss never even achieved a WDC. But he is still one of the greatest, and he comes from the UK, and what's more, he has a great personality both when he was on and off the track. |
||
|
13 Nov 2017, 18:59 (Ref:3780242) | #129 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,941
|
I'll say it again. From a sporting perspective, he is a tremendous driver and a true racer. Little doubt in my mind he is right up there with the best drivers in history, let alone from Blighty! I enjoy watching him on track.
Out of the car he hardly ever comes across as genuine or remotely charismatic. It is a shame because he clearly does think quite deeply about his craft and up until this year only existed to race. I hope outside interests do not affect his ability to do the job as pretty sure if the equipment remains good, he has every chance of netting another couple of titles. |
||
|
13 Nov 2017, 19:51 (Ref:3780253) | #130 | |||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,161
|
Quote:
I'll take the first two as definite. He can be compared to the others and some of them he clearly should be considered better. I'm not going to chose a name from the list and point out why they are worse. I suspect some wouldn't be able to take it, even though it wouldn't be meant as a slight against them as they are all good drivers who are integral to the history of our sport. However some of them, in terms of relative driving talent, aren't the very top draw. (Different eras, comparison, difficult, trees, etc...) |
|||
__________________
Brum brum |
13 Nov 2017, 21:12 (Ref:3780285) | #131 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,783
|
Personaly, I think it's very difficult to make these comparisons but that doesn't mean we aren't allowed to. However, not wanting to state the obvious, firstly they are subjective. Secondly, although the basic format is still there, technologically the sport has moved on so much and like wise, so has an F1 season, which now runs for the best part of 8 months, with 20 races.
|
||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
13 Nov 2017, 21:22 (Ref:3780293) | #132 | |||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,947
|
Quote:
I confess it heartily disappoints me the way that Hamilton polarises views and the manner in which things which have little or nothing to do with his racing ability are brought into discussions as if to demonstrate that he somehow isn't as good as, say, Mansell or Hunt, which I'd like to think most would agree is patent nonsense. One day, perhaps with another couple of WDCs to his name, Hamilton will get the credit he deserves. I'm a Brit and I'm very pleased indeed to have him as WDC - a result he thoroughly deserves. |
|||
__________________
280 days...... |
13 Nov 2017, 23:04 (Ref:3780308) | #133 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,161
|
He can be a bit of a prat out of the car, always trying to make out there is something there isn’t, talking like he wants a strong team mate when he doesn’t, things like that. He goes and lives in a different place for tax reasons. However in the car he’s great to watch and super quick. He can battle through the field and clearly can dominate from the front in the best car. Then there is the personal appearance which some see as daft, especially as after getting rid of it the moustache is back.
|
||
__________________
Brum brum |
13 Nov 2017, 23:29 (Ref:3780313) | #134 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
|
Quote:
Qualifying Records Brise 9 to 0 - Perfect Hunt 49 to 4 - 1225% Clark 52 to 15 - 346% Moss 24 to 7 - 342% Surtees 57 to 17 - 335% Stewart 69 to 27 - 256% G. Hill 88 to 44 - 200% Hamilton 121 to 69 - 175% D.Hill 59 to 55 - 107% Mansell 92 to 97 - 95% Button 125 to 170 - 74% Hamilton's record is not so flash. Clark and Stewart obviously not English. Senna 140 to 18 - 778% Last edited by wnut; 13 Nov 2017 at 23:43. |
||
|
14 Nov 2017, 00:21 (Ref:3780317) | #135 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,821
|
Quote:
Moss was also the same age when the accident ended his career, but again achieved far less in those years at F1 level. Stewart had the benefit of an extra couple of years on career length but still can't match the WDCs and poles etc. Also I never liked his affectation of the tartan, a quite unecessary distraction. As for the rest one might not want to hold up Hawthorn, Hill or Hunt as perfect examples of the British gentleman, what with all the drinking, shagging and road-racing they got up to. And wasn't Our Nige one of the more famous Isle of Man & Jersey resident tax-avoiders? But I do appreciate that for some they will have been boyhood heroes and therefore beyond reproach. |
|||
__________________
a salary slave no more... |
14 Nov 2017, 00:54 (Ref:3780318) | #136 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,783
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
14 Nov 2017, 01:49 (Ref:3780319) | #137 | |
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 16,760
|
||
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides |
14 Nov 2017, 02:01 (Ref:3780320) | #138 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,157
|
Who in the blue hell is Brise. Going go by those stats he's the greatest Brit qualifier of all time.
I think it's a bit hard to just compare straight stats. While Hamilton may not have the best qualy comparison, he's also had some great team mates with Alonso, Button, Rosberg all champions themselves. I do think however that the competition in F1 today is very strong. The way Hamilton usually performs at his best consistently and usually beats top team mates I feel he's one of the best. I think if you asked Jackie Stewart if he could beat Hamilton in his prime, he'd probably say no. Same with many of those brits. Nig might not admit it. I think Jim Clark probably the obvious guy you'd put ahead of Hamilton. Some might say Moss, but it's just a different era. The rest not sure. Take a look over Jim Clark's team mates at Lotus, they're mostly complete nobodies. He had a couple of races with John Surtees and then nobodies that never won a single GP until Graham Hill joined Lotus in Jim's final full year before his death. So that rules Jim out of the qualifying head to head completely. Looking at Hunt since he's high on the list... first 3 seasons a 1 car team. Next season nobody team mates. Next 2 seasons Jochen Mass (ho hum), Patrick Tambay, then he retired. So Hunts not relevant. So yeah head to head quali is skewed with some of the older eras where driver talent probably isn't what it is today throughout the field. Many teams only had 1 main good driver because they couldn't afford 2 or 3. Nowadays the top teams can all afford 2 of the best. Still interesting stats though. |
||
|
14 Nov 2017, 02:13 (Ref:3780321) | #139 | |||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,783
|
Quote:
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
14 Nov 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3780349) | #140 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,873
|
Tony Brise's team mate was a 40-something former WDC and it was only a handful of races. Jackie Stewart's were very good #2 drivers.
Lies, damned lies and statistics. Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk |
||
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
14 Nov 2017, 08:36 (Ref:3780352) | #141 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 8,298
|
I think he will fall in the top level of British champions but will never be considered above them. Only figures will decide that.
I rate his first title as his best, the rest have been achieved in a massively dominant car, much like all of Vettel's and Schumacher's. And for a few of those years he was closely challenged by a team-mate who not only got under his skin eventually but worked out a way to beat him and did it. But not a man who many would consider a massive talent who should have been winning titles for years. He has no charisma, unlike Vettel who though a tool in the car is funny and engaging out of it. I compare tLewis o MS really, a guy who was remarkably good at his job. The difference is that Michael made no effort to be anything out of the car, Lewis tried to force it for some reason, and for some it works, but for most we see through it. At least he tries, but the trying to put his arm around Rosberg that time, that kind of stuff, it is just smarm and very, very fake. He will win countless titles, races and records but will not be remember with the same fondness as guys who won far less. |
||
|
14 Nov 2017, 08:47 (Ref:3780353) | #142 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
|
Quote:
His team mates were Alan Jones 4 - 0, Rolf Stommelen2 - 0, Francois Migault 1 - 0, Merzario 1 - 0, and Verne Schuppan 1 -0. Hill took one look at Brise's testing times and decided his own services were no longer required as a driver. Stommelen out qualified Hill 4 - 0 in 1974. Last edited by wnut; 14 Nov 2017 at 08:53. |
||
|
14 Nov 2017, 09:09 (Ref:3780356) | #143 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
|
||
|
14 Nov 2017, 10:28 (Ref:3780365) | #144 | |||
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 37,621
|
Quote:
Graham was the pilot which made it even more tragic. |
|||
__________________
I've decided to stop reaching out to people. I'm just going to contact them instead. |
14 Nov 2017, 10:50 (Ref:3780367) | #145 | ||
Race Official
20KPINAL
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 23,783
|
|||
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying." Colin Chapman. |
14 Nov 2017, 13:02 (Ref:3780377) | #146 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,821
|
|||
__________________
a salary slave no more... |
14 Nov 2017, 13:07 (Ref:3780379) | #147 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,873
|
Quote:
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk |
|||
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
14 Nov 2017, 18:17 (Ref:3780432) | #148 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,947
|
|||
__________________
280 days...... |
14 Nov 2017, 19:50 (Ref:3780446) | #149 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,161
|
|||
__________________
Brum brum |
14 Nov 2017, 22:13 (Ref:3780477) | #150 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,818
|
Got beaten by Rosberg last year. Lewis is alright but getting beaten by his team mates on a regular basis doesn't warrant my top 10 fastest drivers ever.
|
||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Congratulations Lewis Hamilton - 2014 World Champion | Born Racer | Formula One | 34 | 24 Nov 2014 17:57 |
LEWIS HAMILTON - Formula One Wold Champion 2008 | Bononi | Formula One | 166 | 17 Nov 2008 02:43 |
Lewis Hamilton - GP2 Champion 2006 | Ranald | National & International Single Seaters | 20 | 11 Sep 2006 20:54 |
Will Lewis Hamilton Be Euro F3 Champion?! | Soulja | National & International Single Seaters | 69 | 11 May 2004 23:24 |
Lewis Hamilton Is The Champion | Frank_White | National & International Single Seaters | 46 | 26 Sep 2003 19:02 |