[WEC] Aston Martin Hypercar Discussion

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

At the end of the day, I really can’t believe Andy Palmer has failed to deliver on a wild promise. Who saw that coming?

He’s like a cross between Dany Bahar and Cyril Abitofbull.

[kvenom]

This is a really huge mess now.

[kdr]

As i said to someone, its like one ACO dept was deciding on Hypercar rules, while down the corridor another dept was working on a deal with IMSA to scupper them.

[broadrun96]

Current conditions at the ACO offices

[dwh43scale]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

At the end of the day, I really can’t believe Andy Palmer has failed to deliver on a wild promise. Who saw that coming?

The disappointment is that neither this specifically, nor hypercar more generally, do anything for the reputation of motorsport more generally. Regarding the gentleman in question, one wonders how long he will be in his current position.

[veeten]

@broadrun96 ...and there it is, folks.
We all knew that when the first announcement of the alignment between LMP1 & DPi rules that, eventually, Hypercars would be the odd-man out, even as they tried to include them. Cost & useability issues were going to push more manufacturers towards LMDh, where it's just powertrain that would determine the side-by-side comparisons.

The chassis manufacturers would hold the cards, not only with the first four but with others coming soon after, expanding the overall line of choice.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Current conditions at the ACO offices

https://www.fiawec.com/en/news/state...programme/6637

Statement in response to Aston Martin release on Valkyrie race programme

...

In the meantime, the strategy concerning Le Mans Hypercar and LMDh remains unchanged.

...

[Deleted]

“To run at the 24 Hours of Le Mans and in the FIA World Endurance Championship, at this level of technology and budget, is an undeniable opportunity for a manufacturer to demonstrate its competitiveness. This covers a whole range of fields: technical, efficiency, improved fuel consumption, sustainable mobility. The ACO/IMSA convergence does not impact this category, and the next elements on the technical details of that common platform, to be given at Sebring in mid-March, will confirm that."

Hahahahahahahhaha

[Mike E]

Sounds like Aston has not won many friends here.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ercar-not-dpi/

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Sounds like Aston has not won many friends here.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ercar-not-dpi/

I think saying that is the usual Dagys over-the-top. First and foremost, only 2 cars were reasonably assured and only 1 has appeared. Think we're all willing to give Toyota a bit of room to produce their car in the flesh. Second, DPi 2.0 hasn't been nailed down yet and the "balanced" LMDh/LMH rules package hasn't even been announced. So to say one has destroyed the other is a bit OTT. Hypercar could have delayed the global 'DPi 2.0 styled" rules package but the older LMP1s would be allowed to run 20-21 under the previous rules so they can still run and gives LMDh a chance to build before 21-22 rules package and would have 2020 and 2021 LM24 before they had to be on track.

[Akrapovic]

Building a rule set on the promise of an entry by a manufacturer who is having financial difficulties is not what one would call a 'sound business plan'.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Building a rule set on the promise of an entry by a manufacturer who is having financial difficulties is not what one would call a 'sound business plan'.

So ACO Plan A??

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So ACO Plan A??

I believe it's Plan B. Plan A was more a more simple egg on face scenario. When it looked like it was kinda going okish maybe, they needed to roll out Plan B.

Bin Hypercar. Then either convince IMSA to make LMDh mods, or use LMDh as a base for LMP1.

• Allow custom chassis (alongside LMP2 based chassis)
• Allow custom hybrids, alongside off the shelf hybrids
• Allow customer engines (alongside manufacturer built ones)

[carbsmith]

LMDh with custom chassis and hybrid systems is what LMH is. DPi sometimes sits on the north side of 950kg already and Toyota is already carrying 99kg of ballast over the lightest car in LMP1 so somewhere around 1100kg is not an unrealistic BoP weight over a non-hybrid quasi-spec car.

The issue is not even long term viability it's that there is literally no solid entries for Silverstone in September with or without grandfathering. Not that Aston Martin was one. That's just a result of the current generation of LMP1 cars being meant to only last a few seasons and instead being dragged out to nearly a decade with a moving target for their replacement from getting constantly conflicting and changing input from potential participants, which isn't even entirely their fault because a lot of their priorities keep getting shuffled by inherently spastic governments. What are you supposed to do when a manufacturer says they're totally in for ultra high tech petrol hybrid prototypes then comes back two years later and says they need zero emissions cars racing for overall win on a GTE budget? How do you do get out of this situation without messing with the happy LMP2 teams that are carrying your championships on their back?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

LMDh with custom chassis and hybrid systems is what LMH is. DPi sometimes sits on the north side of 950kg already and Toyota is already carrying 99kg of ballast over the lightest car in LMP1 so somewhere around 1100kg is not an unrealistic BoP weight over a non-hybrid quasi-spec car.

hmmm, if you look at it purely in a simplistic view then sure, they're the same. But the regulations aren't. LMDh is a BoP system, whilst LMP1 is success ballast now, but wasn't BoP before. LMDh won't be having 8MJ systems, whilst LMP1 is.

By pulling back the engine and hybrid regulations to LMDh/DPi levels, rather than LMP1, you bring it back in the range of non-manufacturers.

[mogwai]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Current conditions at the ACO offices

AND at Aston!

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The issue is not even long term viability it's that there is literally no solid entries for Silverstone in September with or without grandfathering.

Interesting point. Two Toyotas. No Astons. No Glickenhaus. No Rebellions. No SMPs. Who knows how many Ginettas. Don't know what ByKolles are up to.

What a shambles.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

By pulling back the engine and hybrid regulations to LMDh/DPi levels, rather than LMP1, you bring it back in the range of non-manufacturers.

Hypercar has significantly lower hybrid performance than LMP1H and we don't even know what LMDh engine power levels are. Literally the only point of comparison we actually have is that LMH has a 200kW max optional hybrid (down from 300kW in the current Toyota) while the LMDh spec hybrid will probably be ~40kW. There's no energy release limit in Hypercar because max combined power is capped. It's entirely possible depending on the direction of the next-gen LMP2 regulations and the weight of the hybrid system that LMDh ends up close in weight and by necessity overall power to LMH. You could build a Hypercar with that 40kW hybrid system if you wanted even, it would just require an engine nearly as powerful as a non-hybrid car.

Success ballast is a completely separate thing from BoP and already being used in BoP categories.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Interesting point. Two Toyotas. No Astons. No Glickenhaus. No Rebellions. No SMPs. Who knows how many Ginettas. Don't know what ByKolles are up to.

What a shambles.

How do you get that lineup?
By my count it's 3 cars, 2xToyota and 1x Glickenhaus.

Rebellion, or the team that's left could maybe scrape together something but don't count on it

Ginetta could maybe save their pennies and try to win at home by hoping it's just them and Toyota, and the new cars break.
ByKolles could do the same and run the grandfathered car but who knows.
SMP could buy something but I'd lean toward no.

I get 3 likely entries with a possible 2 additional but unlikely. Chance of LMP2 win would have to be better than 50/50 I'd think.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

How do you get that lineup?
By my count it's 3 cars, 2xToyota and 1x Glickenhaus.

Rebellion, or the team that's left could maybe scrape together something but don't count on it

Ginetta could maybe save their pennies and try to win at home by hoping it's just them and Toyota, and the new cars break.
ByKolles could do the same and run the grandfathered car but who knows.
SMP could buy something but I'd lean toward no.

I get 3 likely entries with a possible 2 additional but unlikely. Chance of LMP2 win would have to be better than 50/50 I'd think.

am I wrong or didn't glicknhaus tell that they won't be ready before 2020/2021 seasons late rounds?
Likely ACO wishes ginetta LNT and kolles would join with ther grandfathered and bopped lmp1 for next season.

[TF110]

I think hypercar is staying because Toyota has one in the pipeline and they are not interested in running an Oreca or Ligier chassis but their own. Aston is probably not going to enter but it seems like the wec bosses have hopes that a private entity will take over the work of the car and run it on their own. That sounds far fetched to me but strange things can happen. Glickenhaus is still ready but not all the way. I think by Sebring there's going to be more news. Hopefully good news.

[Mal]

You have to look beyond the sporting issue and into the business relationships to see what has happened here:

I don't believe this has anything to do with the ACO / WEC - this is all about the relationship between Aston Martin / Red Bull and the Stroll led investors. From what we understand Valkyrie is a Red Bull Technologies led project with Aston Martin Branding.

When the Stroll investment happened they announced the end of the Aston branding on Red Bull cars in F1 and that Racing Point (also A Stroll investment) would be rebranded as an Aston Martin works team. This likely spelled the end on the relationship between Red Bull and Aston - once the current contracts run out.

To me - from that point on Valkyrie was a white elephant as it was an 'Aston Martin' branded product probably funded by Red Bull. With the end of that relationship pending it had no chance.

The only potential as I see it (speculation only) is either Aston to commit to another programme - which is unlikely until they final realise Lance is unlikely to succeed in F1 and in any case would likely be the cheaper LMDh -

...or Red Bull decide to go it alone.

[dwh43scale]

Originally Posted by Mal

The only potential as I see it (speculation only) is either Aston to commit to another programme - which is unlikely until they final realise Lance is unlikely to succeed in F1 and in any case would likely be the cheaper LMDh -

...or Red Bull decide to go it alone.

I suspect Lance's capabilities are known well enough. The driver (no pun intended) here was surely the need for a cash injection ...

[Mal]

Originally Posted by dwh43scale

I suspect Lance's capabilities are known well enough. The driver (no pun intended) here was surely the need for a cash injection ...

Yes of course - but the key is the move away from Red Bull who appear to be behind the Valkyrie project.

[TheMightyM]

Marshall Pruett on the Aston Martin withdrawal:

The British marque engaged in some fictional writing where it blamed the recent prototype rules convergence agreement, made between the ACO and IMSA, as the reason for ‘pausing’ the Valkyrie Hypercar program. Let’s be clear: There is no pause, and convergence had nothing to do with its withdrawal. Finances, and a lack thereof, is why Aston Martin binned its return to prototype racing. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical. A safety net for Aston Martin has since been provided by investors, but the costly Hypercar racing effort was immediately targeted as a priority to axe.

More here.