BTCC New Regulations From 2011 - Page 6

stedevil · 6 Jun 2009, 03:12 (Ref:2476317)

When it comes to building cars, if eg DTC and STCC adopt these rules as well, there is going to be plenty of cars around to chose from. STCC with the S2000 regs average 2 new built cars per year (even now) and in the DTC they used to build cars as well.

davyboy · 6 Jun 2009, 08:59 (Ref:2476385)

Quote:

Originally Posted by touring fan01

Why if these regs are so flawed in your view, did the teams vote for them?
Why did TOCA decide to adopt them? Do you think they are all numpty's and you know better than them?

One thing I do know is that TOCA and Gow are a lot cleverer than you or I at running a championship and the teams are a lot more knowledgable about what regs they should use in the future than we both are.

Easy now ! If you look back at my posts, you'll see that I actually think the regs are a very good idea. My only real concern before reading the Autosport news piece was the exclusion of RWD, that's all. That article highlighted another obstacle the new regulations face and that's the ability of constructors to make the cars.

Let's keep this discussion to the topic please, and not to derogatory references to individuals.

touring fan01 · 6 Jun 2009, 15:10 (Ref:2476546)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

That article highlighted another obstacle the new regulations face and that's the ability of constructors to make the cars.

Its obviously no obstacle as there are plenty of teams that have plenty time to build plenty of cars over the next 3 years. They wouldn't have introduced the new regs if they thought for a nano-second that there would not be enough of them or couldn't be built.

PDS · 6 Jun 2009, 16:08 (Ref:2476572)

It will be interesting to see how the subframe idea will work and who will supply the TOCA engine?

touring fan01 · 6 Jun 2009, 16:48 (Ref:2476590)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PDS

It will be interesting to see how the subframe idea will work and who will supply the TOCA engine?

The BTCC Vectra, Focus and Civic all use non-production subframes now so there's really no difference. Its only for mounting the suspension and engine onto if the production one is not good enough for the job.

I imagine they will just put the engine out to tender.

redshoes · 6 Jun 2009, 17:14 (Ref:2476593)

Quote:

Originally Posted by touring fan01

The BTCC Vectra, Focus and Civic all use non-production subframes now so there's really no difference. Its only for mounting the suspension and engine onto if the production one is not good enough for the job.

I think you misunderstood Peters point. Yes the Vectra, Focus and Civic all use non-production sub-frames, but they all use different sub-frames, each specifically designed for that model. The Vectra sub-frame will not fit in a Focus, the Focus sub-frame will not fit in a Civic, an so on.

What TOCA are proposing is a standard one-size-fits-all component. Given that every chassis is different how do you make that one-size fit your particular model? Do you chop off everything forward of the bulkhead and bolt in an entire front sub-frame/engine/etc?

**touringlegend** · 6 Jun 2009, 17:59 (Ref:2476604)

Thats the only bit of the new regulations I can't get to grips with.

redshoes · 6 Jun 2009, 18:12 (Ref:2476608)

I have to admit I missed the bit about sub-frames when I first read the news. I initially thought they were just talking about the suspension upright being common, which has been done before in BTC-T. A common sub-frame opens up a lot more issues.

davyboy · 6 Jun 2009, 18:28 (Ref:2476613)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

Do you chop off everything forward of the bulkhead and bolt in an entire front sub-frame/engine/etc?

Yes I imagine that's what they'll do and the front will be silhouetted around the body shape of the car... either in composite or steel.

helterskelter · 8 Jun 2009, 22:29 (Ref:2477989)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdwoody

how much money is it to go racing in btcc with ya £200,000 car ? and then how much will it be in 2013 seeing as there will be a 50% reduction ?

250,000£ for an independent, according to Vaulkhard, who mentioned that budget when I interviewed him.

Thorney · 9 Jun 2009, 01:20 (Ref:2478055)

Well we are certainly interested and conversations at Brands this weekend have further increased our keeness tbh. The only issue for us is timing, we need to be in for the 2010 season (sponsorship commitments) and the idea of running an older S2000 for a limited time makes no sense for us.

I'd still love for RWD to be included though.

werner · 9 Jun 2009, 08:04 (Ref:2478190)

And who is 'we'? Sounds interesting to know.

andy97 · 9 Jun 2009, 08:09 (Ref:2478195)

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/ ??

werner · 9 Jun 2009, 10:14 (Ref:2478262)

That sounds logical, and they claim to have a workshop were they can do a lot.

Scotracer · 9 Jun 2009, 13:50 (Ref:2478397)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helterskelter

250,000£ for an independent, according to Vaulkhard, who mentioned that budget when I interviewed him.

It's just incredible how such a slow racing car can cost so much. I mean, these S2000 cars are no faster in a straight line than a 10 year old M3...

andy97 · 9 Jun 2009, 14:02 (Ref:2478402)

Its all the replacement panels and man hours to repair all the body work that costs so much. If they didn't think it was banger racing rthen it would probably cost 1 tenth of that!!!

**FIRE** · 9 Jun 2009, 14:39 (Ref:2478419)

Any new insights on the sub-frame part of the rules?

Thorney · 9 Jun 2009, 15:35 (Ref:2478456)

We've got two workshops now, we moved the race cars out of the main one as they just took up too much space. We run the 4 CSL Cup cars and the 3 Sportmaxx cars from another place other side of MK. Been a 5 year plan to get into BTCC we were just waiting for regs changes to make a good time but these maybe a year too late for us.

crmalcolm · 9 Jun 2009, 16:45 (Ref:2478496)

Thorney, I know your decision to enter won't be based much on forum posts but can I offer you every encouragement and say 'go for it'.

I've been pleased to see the Maxtreme entry this year and look forward to seeing more new arrivals on the grid.

Who knows, their may be a couple of Vectras up for sale in the near future for you to apply your Vauxhall expertise on?

helterskelter · 10 Jun 2009, 00:11 (Ref:2478803)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scotracer

It's just incredible how such a slow racing car can cost so much. I mean, these S2000 cars are no faster in a straight line than a 10 year old M3...

That's because, as someone said before, engine is not everything. The suspensions are super expensive, the shock absorbers need a lot of work to be properly working and so on. If you watch the tv special Eurosport made on our driver you'll see how technologically advanced S2000s are. They're great cars to drive, believe me...!

Thorney · 10 Jun 2009, 11:30 (Ref:2479065)

The majority of the work in a BTCC car is in the chassis, subframes and suspension hence the idea of these new rules. Engine work tend to be outsourced anyway, the Vectras for example are built by a French company and nothing to do with Vauxhall really. The key measure is laptimes, with 300bhp and 1200kg's the actual power to weight is eclipsed by a lot of series, CSL Cup top class cars are 390bhp and 1250kg's and yet they are slower than BTCC car due to heavier restrictions on suspension pick ups which is where the main differences in terms of times can be had.

The new regs have been designed (a lot of this is conjecture, we've not seen the full details yet and wont do until we formalise our intentions) to take this R&D out from the teams budget. A homologated engine at £25k a season is a bargain, homologated front and rear subframes from a single supplier even more so, all it means is that the teams need to pick a main chassis from one of the manufacturers and graft on the bits the TOCA parts and off you go. Its a lot more complicated than that of course and one might argue that the series gets a little nearer to silouette racing and further from standard road chassis but the devil is in the details and as such we are reserving our judgement. Overall it has to be a good thing though.

davyboy · 10 Jun 2009, 13:20 (Ref:2479166)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thorney

Its a lot more complicated than that of course and one might argue that the series gets a little nearer to silouette racing and further from standard road chassis but the devil is in the details and as such we are reserving our judgement.

I know that you've not seen the regulations in their entirety yet, but from what you have seen or know, will the front end of the car be silhouetted and made from composite like the old modsports minis/midgets ? In my mind I have it that the shell from the base of the windscreen forward will be cut away... the TOCA subframe 'grafted' in and the TOCA motor fitted... the front clad with the shape of the car in either steel or composite. Am I going off the beaten track altogether there ?

Thorney · 10 Jun 2009, 14:05 (Ref:2479194)

Thats pretty much how we see it but its not based on any regs but more just logic (which is usually a long distance fellow in racing regs sometimes) so the short answer is we don't know. We've spent the last year putting together a technical team for the very purpose of building our own car (we'd heard a lot of what was happening for some time, albeit not the detail or frankly the extent) and the more we learn the better it suits us, just timing is a bit out as its not until 2011 and we need it 2010 for sponsorship commitments. Certainly looking forward to knowing more and getting into the detail.

PDS · 10 Jun 2009, 19:49 (Ref:2479556)

Some intersting comments from Giovanardi here about the new regs..

http://www.touringcartimes.com/columns.php

davyboy · 10 Jun 2009, 19:59 (Ref:2479571)

Does the original stock vehicle have to be FWD or is it just that all vehicles competing in the championship have to be FWD. For example, given that the front end will be more or less spec., would it not be possible to create an FWD BMW or Subaru Legacy for example ?

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