[Team] … begat Alfa Romeo begat Audi: is their best ever season coming?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by veeten

Well, it seems that Sauber is now owned by a 28 year old Billionaire, not only the force behind online gambling Stake, as well as streaming service Kick.com, but also is big in Cryptocurrency. Looks the part, in this new economy that's been around this last decade+.

Friends with Drake and UFC fighter Israel Adesanya, and has a stake(so to speak) in Everton FC.

Just the kind of person for this modern F1, and wouldn't be surprised if there are more like him on the horizon.

I am curious where you heard this? An article from the F1 news/rumor site TheJudge13 posted an article that popped up for me in the past day or two. I took a quick look and realized it is poorly written clickbait. The title of the article is "MEET THE 28-YEAR-OLD CRYPTO-BILLIONAIRE ‘F1 TEAM OWNER’"

It is about as misleading as you can get. As mentioned above, this should only be a branding exercise for 2024 and 2025. Maybe he did purchase a minority share in Sauber. My understanding is that Audi currently has a minority share, but is scheduled for additional purchase shares to move them to majority shareholder before the 2026 season.

As to TheJudge13, I used to look at that site years ago, but I think today it is a total mess. That article is an example. And the site is flooded with advertisements. Its all about making money. I am surprise we haven't seen a "Michael Schumacher is batboy" article on the site.



As to Stake/Kick, I personally don't have a good opinion. It is my understanding that Kick (streaming service) promotes Stake (online crypto gambling). Given the Kick audience is generally young, I think the ethics of this is on the sleezy side IMHO. Frankly I am just waiting for it to all blow up in another "crypto bro" disaster.

Richard

[Skam85]

Not as sleazy as the money coming from something that literally kills you slowly (cigarettes).

[chillibowl]

is the crypto crowd really that much worse than the traditional banks, financial & hedge funds, insurance companies etc that have been linked to F1 over the years?

if he wants to walk around the paddock pretending like he owns the place it wont be the first time. in the end it will all make for an interesting Storey!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Not as sleazy as the money coming from something that literally kills you slowly (cigarettes).

Yup, cause NOTHING else ever in racing has ever been a problem. Or you know has been FORCED upon those who don't want to otherwise partake. Laziest type of I can't make my own mind up and resist advertising statements that make it so no one else can enjoy anything that the chosen few have deemed acceptable

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is the crypto crowd really that much worse than the traditional banks, financial & hedge funds, insurance companies etc that have been linked to F1 over the years?

IMHO yes absolutely.

You can't paint everyone of them with the same brush, but I think the root of current drama in cryptocurrency is that it is less regulated than other mature industries such as you mention. So it is much easier for nefarious people to play games until they are eventually caught.

Just look at FTX (who had sponsored Mercedes F1), Sam Bankman-Fried and that crowd. That was a complete train wreck of purposeful mismanagement and theft. It just took it awhile for it to be exposed and to come crashing down.

Moving much more into personal opinion here, I have nothing against things like blockchain as a technology, or fiat currency as a concept, but I tend to think that once you get past the small number of idealists, many of those involved in cryptocurrency are deep into some type of "get rich quick" scheme with all of the various hucksters, schemers and scammers that come with that. Nobel invented dynamite with good intentions, but also quickly realized how it would be used for bad things. Same with cryptocurrency.

Traditional banking, insurance, etc. probably all went through this phase as well, but many decades or hundreds of years ago before they "grew up" and were regulated to try to stop the shenanigans. Even though sometimes it still happens.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Richard, just to add that the cryptocurrency "world" here in the UK is barely regulated; it slightly better in the States but still not as good as it really should be considering the vast sums involved.

As to other financial services, after the 2008 shenanigans, most 1st world countries quite rightly tightened regulation after there had been a period of "soft touch" regulation especially here in the UK. This was made considerably worse when the then government gave responsibility by dividing the regulation between three different agencies, who were unaware of what the others were doing and even not knowing or understanding what their responsibilities actually were. So financial service companies just devised products that nobody truly understood, especially not the regulators, and they were therefore able to get away with financial "murder"!

With the governments of too many countries trying to deliver "small" government, i.e. reducing the civil service that actually do all the work of running countries, there is a likelihood that more of the same will happen in the not to distant future.

[veeten]

Actually, it was Daily Mail.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yup, cause NOTHING else ever in racing has ever been a problem. Or you know has been FORCED upon those who don't want to otherwise partake. Laziest type of I can't make my own mind up and resist advertising statements that make it so no one else can enjoy anything that the chosen few have deemed acceptable

I've never smoked a cigarette in my life but I'll be darned if the Malboro McLaren/Ferrari liveries aren't some of the best ever. JPS Lotus too.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

With the governments of too many countries trying to deliver "small" government, i.e. reducing the civil service that actually do all the work of running countries, there is a likelihood that more of the same will happen in the not to distant future.

Yep, there is that vicious circle of...

Independent regulation > Free marketeers complain > De-regulation/self-regulation > Bad stuff happens > Independent regulation ... rinse and repeat

Originally Posted by veeten

Actually, it was Daily Mail.

A quality site if there ever was one! (As if I have never looked at something on Daily Mail!)

This entire Stake/Kick sponsorship. Assuming Audi doesn't get cold feet (and they say they are moving forward), it should go away (or mostly go away) in a few years.

Richard

[Richard C]

More noise about potential internal turmoil at Audi with the implication being the F1 move being at risk.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/a...exit/10578564/

It's hard to know what to think. Audi continues to say they are committed. But these news reports just makes it sound like anyone who was the driving force for the move into F1 is leaving.

I think the buy into Sauber was a phased purchase with them current at 50/50 between prior owner (Longbow?) and Audi. With them increasing share to 75% this year? If that hasn't happened already, I can imagine that might be the next step as I assume (maybe bad assumption) that at each step they could decide to not move forward and increase their share. Another view is that even if Audi is getting cold feet, that maybe the price they negotiated earlier might still be a good deal and they could continue to buy in only to sell later if the value of teams remains elevated.

I can imagine the quick reply is "Andretti to buy Sauber", but given how the prior attempt failed, I just don't see that working out.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard C

Yep, there is that vicious circle of...

Independent regulation > Free marketeers complain > De-regulation/self-regulation > Bad stuff happens > Independent regulation ... rinse and repeat

Why did European motorists enjoy 1100cc Austins and 1300cc Fiats, when Americans drove 305ci Chevys and optional 427ci big blocks?

Just politics? Or real differences in crude oil supply in the 50's, 60's and 70's?

I note that Formula 1 competitors pushed back on the 1500cc regulations and had it reverted (plus extra) for 1966.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

It's hard to know what to think. Audi continues to say they are committed. But these news reports just makes it sound like anyone who was the driving force for the move into F1 is leaving.

Yes - it feels strange doesn't it? Brings in the question of Audi commitment, especially when those moved or leaving are reportedly doing so due to differing views on the future direction of the company. Guess we'll only know for sure once there's an Audi power unit in the car.

In the meantime, this year's cars look pretty good with the green / black livery on track IMHO and this article about the naming rights sponsor could be of interest.

[PanozDP01]

Nobody likes the big long heavy cars. Heavy, expensive and complicated hybrid engines aren't liked by a lot of ppl either, including Adrien Newey.

But F1 doubled down on all of that to appease the VW group. And now VW is backtracking yet again.

With the cost cap, running an F1 team doesn't look as insane as it used to. Maybe another MFG'r would jump at the opportunity. Audi paid 600 million for the controlling stake. They could probably find a buyer at cost.

There is rumors of Toyota having interest. Toyota was skeptical of pure EV's and has always put hybrid above them. It would make sense for Toyota to get in.

https://youtu.be/hKxKl1QzEWI?si=jOxSwjQdDqDhI2Ew

[steve_r]

VAG have been rumoured to join F1 for about 25 years, but there was always the feeling that they were actually reluctant to do so. I don't know whether there is substance to the rumours that they are changing their minds again or not, but it would come as no real surprise if they did.

If F1 have made changes to appeal to VAG, then they have potentially wasted their time. Meanwhile GM are seemingly not welcome.

[P38 in workshop]

I believe it comes down the the German way of doing things,they like perfection and a Le Mans programme was ideal as it allowed a year in which to refine the car until that state had been reached.Twenty or so races a year does not permit that type of progress as you need to feed a constant stream of updates to the car and with the resource restrictions in place,there is a chance that some bugs may not have been worked out of the new parts.Which causes sleepless nights.I have doubts about the group's enthusiasm for moving forward and wouldn't be hugely shocked if discreet negotiations with Andretti Global took place,who knows an engine might be thrown in.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I believe it comes down the the German way of doing things,they like perfection and a Le Mans programme was ideal as it allowed a year in which to refine the car until that state had been reached.Twenty or so races a year does not permit that type of progress as you need to feed a constant stream of updates to the car and with the resource restrictions in place,there is a chance that some bugs may not have been worked out of the new parts.Which causes sleepless nights.I have doubts about the group's enthusiasm for moving forward and wouldn't be hugely shocked if discreet negotiations with Andretti Global took place,who knows an engine might be thrown in.

Oddly enough this frame of thinking has been with me for some time.
If VAG build an engine that is almost perfect, and becomes the DFV of this generation (or nearly, used by 3 or four teams) under a variety of brand names so in effect becomes the go to source of motive power and we have teams running engines known as Audi, Bugatti, Porsche, Lamborghini etc.
But doing that may be a cheaper, simpler way of demonstrating their engineering expertise than trying to compete on the chassis front where specialized aerodynamics cost a fortunes and enormous sums are spent trying to gain an advantage of 100ths of a second.

Id agree with those who question just who was committed to F1, and if they are moving on it, does seem odd, they are not staying to oversee the success of the programme they succeeded in launching.

[v8supes]

Theres a lot of talk about Audi potentially pulling the plug on their F1 project but i swear every week they are recruiting staff for it.

Also, im a big fan of black and green on race cars but the Sauber is too much green isnt it? Like it hurts your eyes.

[S griffin]

It always mystifies me how VAG made so many noises about entering, but it’s only recently they have decided to enter. So it wouldn’t surprise me if they make a u-turn and decide not to enter after all. Hopefully though the team survives either way and whoever takes over can think of a better team name than Stake!

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

If VAG build an engine that is almost perfect, and becomes the DFV of this generation (or nearly, used by 3 or four teams) under a variety of brand names so in effect becomes the go to source of motive power and we have teams running engines known as Audi, Bugatti, Porsche, Lamborghini etc.
But doing that may be a cheaper, simpler way of demonstrating their engineering expertise than trying to compete on the chassis front where specialized aerodynamics cost a fortunes and enormous sums are spent trying to gain an advantage of 100ths of a second.

Id agree with those who question just who was committed to F1, and if they are moving on it, does seem odd, they are not staying to oversee the success of the programme they succeeded in launching.

The only point I would disagree with is the inclusion of Bugatti.I understand that they offloaded the brand to Rimac a while ago.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

The only point I would disagree with is the inclusion of Bugatti.I understand that they offloaded the brand to Rimac a while ago.

One of those incestuous deals IIRC.... Rimac took over Bugatti but either Porsche own a large chunk (near half) of Rimac, or something similar that leaves Porsche and Rimac both as major shareholders in Bugatti, albeit Rimac slightly moreso. I dont recall the exact way it works but Im sure it is some sort of joint ownership.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by E.B

One of those incestuous deals IIRC.... Rimac took over Bugatti but either Porsche own a large chunk (near half) of Rimac, or something similar that leaves Porsche and Rimac both as major shareholders in Bugatti, albeit Rimac slightly moreso. I dont recall the exact way it works but Im sure it is some sort of joint ownership.

As you say, incestuous indeed. Rimac holds 55% with Porsche at 45%. However, I believe that Porsche holds a 22% share of Rimac Group.

[greentrumpet]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Why did European motorists enjoy 1100cc Austins and 1300cc Fiats, when Americans drove 305ci Chevys and optional 427ci big blocks?

Just politics? Or real differences in crude oil supply in the 50's, 60's and 70's?

I note that Formula 1 competitors pushed back on the 1500cc regulations and had it reverted (plus extra) for 1966.

I can't speak for others but in 1961 when my Dad bought his first car (Austin A35 van, new, required for his poorly paid job) there weren't all that many car owners in my village. The UK was about 10 years after rationing and about 10 years pre central heating. Basically we were dirt poor but probably lucky not to have been wiped from the face of the Earth. The Land of the Free seemed to have it rather better than the UK but as I hurtle through my late 60s I wonder how long we all have left given the quality of our rulers.
PS I'd still love a 289, 305, 351 or 427. Best I managed was a Buick in an MGB.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hopefully though the team survives either way and whoever takes over can think of a better team name than Stake!

Steak.

Mmmm, Steak. There's a whole world of promo material right there.

[S griffin]

Tbf, it can’t get worse than the team formerly known as Alpha Tauri came up with!

[GTRMagic]

Surely Audi will operate to the Cap in Capex and Operating expenditure in the operation of the team. It would be up to whoever is left to run AudiF1 to operate the team to that budget. And in theory covered by the Concorde Agreement and whatever commercial partners are attracted to the project..

Do the poor noises suggest there might just be a problem with the powerplant development… as there might be for Red Bull if Ford chucks a wobbly about Mr Horner