Argo

[Chris Townsend]

Roger

Wasn't part of the problem in 1979 that the pro FSV series switched to fuel injection with the new Rabbit [Golf] engine and whilst those mainly SCCA runners who couldn't afford the change might have carried on within FSV as an SCCA class, there weren't enough of them. So the SCCA lumped them into FC and when a fuel injected VW showed up it was put into FA [what had been FB until the demise of the F5000s].

Chris

[allenbrown]

Useful context Roger - thanks for that. One minor point: in 1965 FA was only for 3-litre cars; the class was extended to allow 5-litre stock blocks in 1968.

[Neptune]

Allan,

I'll have to check on that one. I have the actual issue of SCCA's "Sports Car" when the classes were proposed to the membership. I do remember a Cooper F1 car showing up at Mid-Ohio in FA very early on, the 1st or 2nd year. It practised Sat but didn't race, IIRC.

Roger

[Neptune]

Chris,

No, not at all. You are probably right about the pro cars going to a new injected engine, but there were more than a few non-injected cars that made up the bulk of the field of the new class F Continental. I've got to do some digging in old issues of "SprotsCar" but I think this change came about at the same time that FB for 1600cc cars became F Atlantic within SCCA. Again, SCCA did not time the change to agree with FIA. In reality, SCCA's FB was probably the basis of F Atlantic through out the rest of the world, and then finally for themselves.

More on the FC, FSV integration into F Continental. At the end of 1978 season, most 1100cc FC cars went into hibernation, because the lap times were known for the FSV cars in their own class. Most FC runners felt SCCA had just killed their class and very few continued to run at all. I know John Fowler, who had run my Modus for 2 seasons and qualified for the runoffs both years, finished 2nd to Jim Trueman in 1978 and set fastest lap and track lap record, put the Modus in storage and moved on to, IIRC, a Formula Atlantic. Bill Rutan bought it after some time and then Mike Rand put it on the pole for 1980. This should give you an idea of how decimated the field of FC was after inclusion in F Continental in 1979. I have a photo of the field approaching the start of the 1980 runoffs race and as far as I can see, the Modus on the pole is the only ex-FC car in the field.

Roger

[driftwood]

Neptune
Slightly Off Topic
These Scca Magazines You Have
Are They Regional Or The Mag For The Whole Of Usa?
I Seek Some Magazines With Race Results Photos Etc For B Sports Races ( Seeking To Trace Certain Cars) And Later Can Am Races Would You Have Any That Cover The 1972-80 Periods
If Not Where Can I Acquire Them? Any Book Shops That Horde old Race Magazines?

[Chris Townsend]

Drifty

I have Autoweek 1975-76 and 81-83 and On Track mid 80s
Allen has Sports Car 1976-82 [SCCA national mag], Formula and On Track 1975-1983
There are BSR results from mid 70s in Formula [I know this as I used the FB results from the same meetings] very few pictures though
A good source for American magazines is Kryder Racing in Ohio. Talk to Sandy Kryder. They have a website that lists stock.

Chris

[driftwood]

Thanks for info tel fax for Kryder racing?

[Charles Warner]

Originally Posted by driftwood

Neptune
Slightly Off Topic
These Scca Magazines You Have
Are They Regional Or The Mag For The Whole Of Usa?
I Seek Some Magazines With Race Results Photos Etc For B Sports Races ( Seeking To Trace Certain Cars) And Later Can Am Races Would You Have Any That Cover The 1972-80 Periods
If Not Where Can I Acquire Them? Any Book Shops That Horde old Race Magazines?

Kevan,

I have several years of that era of the national SCCA mags that I'll be selling soon. I'll let you know what I have when I return from your side of the pond next week.

[Neptune]

Driftwood,

As has already been said, Sports Car is the mag for all US SCCA. I have a few from the early 50s, bought a collection of '58-68 and joined SCCA in late 1977 until just a couple of years ago and I kept most of the monthlies from that period. The ones from the 60s and 70s don't have a lot of photos or even for that matter, a lot of results. By the 80s, they were better about covering "national" races, but the results are usually only 1 or 2 deep in each class and maybe only one photo per event.

Competition Press and Autoweek, a weekly most like UK's Motoring News was the best as far as club racing reports. I kept some from as early as 1964, but weeklies take up so much space and the newsprint gets yellowed and brittle.
What cars are you trying to trace?

Roger

[driftwood]

lola t290 t292/4 cars B sports racers
all i have are the run off results from 72 and 75?

[Neptune]

Allen,

I found the proposed class structures for FA, FB and FC in the December 1964 Sports Car. You are right about the 5 liter stock block motors not included in FA until a later date. This was the proposal, not the actual rule. But I can't imagine it changed much, as the proposal is pretty much as I remember the rules.
Roger

[Chris Townsend]

Roger

I know that John Fowler of Charleston, W.Virgina ran your car for a couple of years as an FC before moving to Atlantic. Have you ever talked to him? I'm interested in his RT1 and RT4...

Chris

[Neptune]

Chris,
My car was in Atlanta when I bought it. I looked it over when we were down racing my Eleven in October, then at the end of November, Brit & I arranged to meet in southern Kentucky where it rolled out of his trailer into mine. I had contacted SCCA for an address for John and already had a letter ready to mail, as soon as the transaction happened. I mailed it the next morning, still in Ky and the following Thursday, a package of photos and information arrived. We've kept in contact over the years since.

I'll have to look at John's letters, but seems like he remembered half of the cars he'd raced had been destroyed. Jerry Mong did the Modus conversion from F3 to SCCA FC and kept the BDJ motors going. I think that when John moved on in 1979, he bought a Bobsy FAtl from Jerry. Fast forward through the years and now I'm probably going to have Jerry's son Ron refresh the tub as one of the 1st steps in the Modus restoration.

Roger

[Chris Townsend]

Roger

Thanks, didn't know about the Bobsy [now there's a thread for a constructor we haven't touched. Very few Bobsys ever made it into the pro series so I've rather neglected them. Do the Mong family have records of their build run?]

Fowler had an RT1 1981/82, then an RT4 82-86 which can be one of only three cars.

Chris

[Neptune]

Chris,

I'll have to contact John again. I had a work email for him but he has since left that firm. I don't think he was very happy w/ the Bobsy. IIRC, the aerodynamics of the car was not up to that of the UK manufacturers who were so much closer to the developments in F1. We tend to think of the 70s as the era of flat bottomed, winged cars and an individual buying a new car in 1979 might have had a tough way to go. I'm surprised though he would buy a RT1, as I would think it would have been more of the same.

Maybe I can get John's email and you could communicate directly.

Roger

[Joe Griffin]

Roger,

Do you have any contacts at the Crawford Auto Museum in Cleveland? I am trying find the history of the Argo JM2 chassis #007 that they have. I sent them a couple of emails and tried to call them but they do not respond.

I spoke to Bill Alsup about the car and he seems to remember selling it to Jim Harrall (sp?) after the 1977 season. Reportedly the museum claims that the car is one that Bill used to win the championship in 1978.

As I am sure you know, there are similar claims to my car. Argo JM2 chassis #20. Alsup thought John Zitler sold him a new water cooled JM2 at the beginning of the 1978 season. Unfortunitly, My SCCA log book only go back as far as the beginning of 1979 so I don't have a paper trail to confirm this.

Any help would be appriciated.

Joe

[Chris Townsend]

Joe

007 would certainly be 1977 production
020 is certainly 1978 (018 is the works F3 car debuted in spring 1978, 021 was the works F3 car in early 1979)

According to Sports Car December 1978, p. 20 Bill Cruse used "the Argo that Alsup ran in 1977" throughout 1978 in SCCA NE division FC.
This would mean that Cruse had 007 [and maybe kept it in 1979 as a spare car]
Alsup would have run 020 in the 1978 pro series. According to Sports Car Dec 1979 James Havell has an ex Alsup JM2. This might be 007, explaining the confusion with Jim Harrell [who I thought was out of racing by that time] or could be 020 [but that can be checked with your log book.

My money is that 020 is the 1978 champ winning car, based on Sports Car's reference to 007 going to Cruse.

Chris

[Joe Griffin]

Chris Thanks for your last post. It certainly provides some answers to my many questions.

Jim Havell never owned Argo JM-2 Chassis #20 according to the logbook. The SCCA logbook shows it was issued on 4/10/79 to William D. Vermeer (presumably the 2nd owner after Alsup). The logbook number is #79-226, the same number that is also stamped into the roll bar. The remainder of the owners are as follows: Frank Vella, Mike Studnicki, Dan Wait, Wayne McGaughty, Carl Feghali, Dominic Ballera and myself.

The logbook indicates that Vermeer raced the car extensively from 1979 to 1981 but I can find little record of this in the race results. He owned the car until 8/16/85. I found a period photo of the car from the early eighties as it appears in the logbook presumably driven by Vermeer. Alsup said that a guy he thought might have been Vermeer approached him at a Mid Ohio race while he was still racing Indy Cars claiming to owned his championship FSV car.

Alsup thought that after he “traded in” has 1977 air-cooled car (Argo JM-2 #007) that John Zitler converted it to water cooled specification and it went to Jim Havell or Harrell from Connecticut. He said that Jim kept calling him and asking for set-up information but every time he offered any suggestions, Jim always had “better ideas”. The possibility that it went to Bill Cruse in 1978 before it went to Jim Havell is likely, as Bill’s memory was a bit foggy on some of the details and dates.

For your information, Dominic also owned Argo JM-2 chasses #016. This reportedly was the George Dyer car in 1978. It was a wrecked car that Dominic purchased and used for parts. I have the old logbook, which shows that it was issued on 3/12/79 to Mark Abel. The logbook number is #79-191. The only other owner was Scott Refert who crashed the car heavily on 5/23/86 at Road Atlanta.

Best regards, Joe

[Chris Townsend]

Joe

Just possible that Alsup did use 007 in one early 1978 pro round
At the first Mini-Indy championship round, Phoenix 18 March he's got the only Argo
At Trenton Mini-Indy 23 April Alsup is there, and so are Cruse [presumably with 007] and Bobby Olivero in another Argo. This could be 020's debut.

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

Joe

I've got four years of pro results and a few SCCA results for Vermeer.
There are a few gaps in the pro races, but they run 79 to 82
Drop me a private mail

Chris

[Joe Griffin]

Chris,

Good thought. I may have some photographic evidence that to support that possibility. Bill Alsup sent me a couple of photos of the car. One at Phoenix in March and the other from September (I don’t remember the race). The earlier photo shows the original “high down force” nose and the other has the later “speedway” nose. Bill could not remember when the new style nose was introduced. It is quite possible that the speedway nose was supplied with the new car in 1978. I will try and figure out how to post the photos.

Joe

[Joe Griffin]

Chris,

Attached are the photos provide by Bill Alsup. The first is at Phoenix on March 18th 1978 and the other is at Ontario Motor Speedway on Sept. 2nd 1978. There are some other differences between the two cars besides the front nose such as the rear wing and wheels. I strongly suspect you are right and Argo JM2 Chassis # 007 was the car Alsup used at Phoenix. I can no longer view the photo of the car as it appears at the Crawford Museum but I bet it looks remarkably like the photo from the Phoenix race!

Joe

[makl]

Hello,

I'm the owner of a F3 ARGO JM8 from 1981.
I'm looking to find historic pictures and all tehnical informations from this car.
Please let me know.
Best regards

Marc

[driftwood]

Hi
what is the chassis number motor fitted and any names or drivers or teams associated with the car?
Any old bodywork with paint sponsors stickers?
I assume you are french and running the car now in mountain races?

Drivers known in 1981-83 racing in F3 are
JM8
Jon Beekhuis, Enrique Benamo, John Booth, Paul Hutson, Victor Rosso, David Sturdy, Tierry Tassin. later Bruno Huber

[makl]

Hello,

Thank you for reply.

Chassis n° is JM8 052 F3 fitted with a 2L Toyota Novamotor with Kugelfischer mechanical injection.
Since 2001, it run in F3 Classic French and HRA Germany championship.
Who drove this car: 1981-....2001 ?
I believe it's in Europe.
Thierry Tassin ? with Belga as Sponsor ? Team was Anglia Cars ?
Pictures ?
Are you sure that Bruno Huber drove a JM8 ?

Please, let me know.

Best regards

Marc