Brabham BT14

[Andrew Fellowes]

One more question for grice80, what does the FIA paperwork say?
Today it is presented in immaculate condition and is accompanied by FIA paperwork
Or has that gone walk-about?

and a letter from 'Automobile Club de Monaco' stating its eligibility to compete in this years 'Grand Prix Historique
I assume that means 2006.

Andrew

[Denis Lupton]

Andrew
In answer your question's
1 The FIA document, Fiche No. 1682,dated 17/7/99,states Chassis No.
AM 6 , the model is given as "Grand Prix",the photos attached show it to be
a short upright car,with Lockeed calipers,etc,and are photos of the car as I have seen from personal observation.
2 The letter from the A C de Monaco is dated 29 November 2005, so
would apply to an entry for 2006.
I have the original document's in front of me at present.
Denis

[allenbrown]

Anything on ownership history?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Denis Lupton

Andrew
In answer your question's
1 The FIA document, Fiche No. 1682,dated 17/7/99,states Chassis No.
AM 6 , the model is given as "Grand Prix",the photos attached show it to be
a short upright car,with Lockeed calipers,etc,and are photos of the car as I have seen from personal observation.
2 The letter from the A C de Monaco is dated 29 November 2005, so
would apply to an entry for 2006.
I have the original document's in front of me at present.
Denis

The ACM reply was made on the basis that it was chassis FL-8-65. Which it wasn't, but how were they to know until scrutineering. They accepted FL-6-65 and it took part in the pre-66 race. I can ask the ACM again, but it looks like the letter was just a ploy to boost the price of the car and there was probably no intention of ever actually entering the car, particularly when you look at the state of the car, seat harness and so on.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Anything on ownership history?

It may well be fiction but that was the bit I was interested in. You never know, there could be a small lead worth exploring.

Andrew

[grice80]

All interesting,but is it possible that someone recognises the car from the photo.I dont think the car has changed for a long time.It certinaly looks like it has done a lot of racing.
Everything about the car is "well used" and it must have raced somewhere before Rizzi & co were involved with it.

Again any help is most appreciated.

PS. I will take some more photo's and post them soon.

[Denis Lupton]

Alan
In answer to your question,the FIA document list no previous owners,in itself an impossible scenario, as the documents were issued 17/7/99,and obviously
it had to be purchased from a previous owner,but the 2 last sheet's attached
(pages 10 & 11 of the document) are blank,no previous owners listed.
The history( ???) of this car appears to have the potential to upset the
FIA regulatary system,and turn the auction houses on their ears, how this car ever was documented,and it's provenance established is beyond
comprehension. The new owner did not receive any documents at all,
until he arrived back in Australia
Denis

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Denis Lupton

Alan
In answer to your question,the FIA document list no previous owners,in itself an impossible scenario, as the documents were issued 17/7/99,and obviously
it had to be purchased from a previous owner,but the 2 last sheet's attached
(pages 10 & 11 of the document) are blank,no previous owners listed.
The history( ???) of this car appears to have the potential to upset the
FIA regulatary system,and turn the auction houses on their ears, how this car ever was documented,and it's provenance established is beyond
comprehension. The new owner did not receive any documents at all,
until he arrived back in Australia
Denis

The thing with FIA papers is they said on them (at least in the original French) that they did not guarantee the history or identity.
They also only asked you to state the history where/if known.

Of course it would be reasonable to at least expect someone to know the name of the person they bought it from, but there was no requirement to state it.

The UK insisted on more information, but the FIA did not ask for it and certainly did not intend them to be proof of identity - insistance on a (hi)story is what lead to some dubious claims.

If the car had been accepted and arrived at Monaco they probably wouldn't have queried the car's identity and chances are it would have been allowed to run.

[Andrew Fellowes]

FL-9-65 - John Bridges/Red Rose Motors 1966

To recap,

FL-9-65 : AM9 (as advised by David Newton)
1980-84 Robert Jean Sauvage
1984-89 Leo Schildkamp
1989-2000 Thierry De Mortier
2000-07 David Newton
(2004 advertised in Motorsport UK for £30,000)

FL-9-65 advertised on Race-cars.com in October 2002 supposedly with HMSA & CSRG logbooks for $40,000 (California USA. Advert says restored in 1965.

FL-9-65 AM [ 6 ] Restored 1992, FIA form dated 1999 by L Rizzi, sold 2006 to Australia

Andrew

[phdm]

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

FL-9-65 : AM9 (as advised by David Newton)
1980-84 Robert Jean Sauvage
1984-89 Leo Schildkamp
1989-2000 Thierry De Mortier
2000-07 David Newton
(2004 advertised in Motorsport UK for £30,000)

Andrew,
This seems to confirm my own information except my approximate memory of dates !
According to what you write here, we know now that the De Mortier "BT14" came from Leo Schildkamp which could make sense with WW in the middle.
What is more suspect is the identity it has been given.
Any information prior to 1980 ?

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by phdm

Andrew,
This seems to confirm my own information except my approximate memory of dates !
According to what you write here, we know now that the De Mortier "BT14" came from Leo Schildkamp which could make sense with WW in the middle.
What is more suspect is the identity it has been given.
Any information prior to 1980 ?

Second time in a week that Leo Schildkamp has cropped up (in the Pygmee thread), he could probably fill in a few blanks.

I just found him as a Lancia Lambda (8th series) driver in 2003 (see page 10):
http://www.busybee.be/X/SP/PDF/ARDENNES2003_NEWS2.pdf

It looks like the identity of that car might have become confused in the late 80s.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally Posted by phdm

According to what you write here, we know now that the De Mortier "BT14" came from Leo Schildkamp which could make sense with WW in the middle.
What is more suspect is the identity it has been given.
Any information prior to 1980 ?

No, I have nothing, and I agree about it being suspect now!

-thanks for the email, trying to find out about Swiss Brabhams is as bad as trying to get information from a Swiss Bank!!!!!! Andrew

[grice80]

I have previously spoken to Phillip Moran (the owner of FL-9-65, in the U.S.A) and he was honest enough to tell me that he he had all the history on the car from 1971 onwards,(when the car was imported) ,but nothing prior to that.
It would seem this is the genuine vehicle?

[Andrew Fellowes]

I think I would put it the other way around, the other two may not be kosher.

Andrew

[Denis Lupton]

Originally Posted by grice80

I have previously spoken to Phillip Moran (the owner of FL-9-65, in the U.S.A) and he was honest enough to tell me that he he had all the history on the car from 1971 onwards,(when the car was imported) ,but nothing prior to that.
It would seem this is the genuine vehicle?

Just for the record Steve, I have this gentleman as PATRICK Moran,(the owner of FL-9-65 in the USA),and I think this to be a genuine car,as you say.
Denis

[allenbrown]

It is worth bearing in mind that we know Brabham allocated the same number to two different cars on at least one other occasion - FL-1-65 - and they may have done the same with a car going to the US. So finding one genuine FL-9-65 does not in itself prove that any other FL-9-65 is not also genuine.

Could we get hold of the list of owners of Mr Moran's BT14 from 1971? Jeremy Hall saw the car a week or so ago but didn't get a note of those owners. Anyone else feel that 1971 is a bit late for a BT14 to be crossing the Atlantic?

[Denis Lupton]

Allen
Fred Opert was still operating, plus no doubt, other's, so anything's possible.
Denis

[grice80]

Originally Posted by Denis Lupton

Just for the record Steve, I have this gentleman as PATRICK Moran,(the owner of FL-9-65 in the USA),and I think this to be a genuine car,as you say.
Denis

Once again you are quite correct!Information overload im afraid,I must refer to my notes and stop relying on my memory.

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

It is worth bearing in mind that we know Brabham allocated the same number to two different cars on at least one other occasion - FL-1-65 - and they may have done the same with a car going to the US. So finding one genuine FL-9-65 does not in itself prove that any other FL-9-65 is not also genuine.

Could we get hold of the list of owners of Mr Moran's BT14 from 1971? Jeremy Hall saw the car a week or so ago but didn't get a note of those owners. Anyone else feel that 1971 is a bit late for a BT14 to be crossing the Atlantic?

Ownership chain runs as follows according to Patrick.
HA Sutcliffe Oregon purchased 1970 or 1971 as told to Raney
Scott Raney Springfielsd Oregon purchased late 70's according to Raney
Louis Bentsen Eugene Oregon purchased 80's
Paul Winters Mountain View Calif. purchased 8/89
Patrick Moran purchased January 01
The car was earlier believed to be a BT21 but this was clarified in 1989.
It carries tech stickers from 1975 and an Oregon(96) SCCA roll hoop stamp number 96 383 reputedly an early number. There does not appear to be an AM number on the car. The plastic chassis plate reads CHASSS No.F-LIBRE-9-65

[allenbrown]

Thanks Jeremy. The 1975 tech stickers would be quite compelling. The plate could be a later addition. Did the frame look right for a BT14 to you?

[Chris Townsend]

Jeremy

I can't find either Sutcliffe or Raney in SCCA nationals in the Pacific NW, though the latter's name is strangely familiar.
What motor was it running in the 1970s?
What event is the tech sticker from, if legible, and not generic?

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

For reasons best known to myself I have against FL-9-65 for 1968 the name of one Neil Hansen of Portland Oregon, running it with a t/c. Might it be the case that Sutcliffe bought the car from him, rather than importing it in 1970-71?

Chris

[Jeremy Hall]

Like so much stuff some of the history is passed down by word of mouth. Raney supplied the info from Sutcliffe who was never in touch with the current owner-so where he got the car from is unrecorded. There are some pix of the bodywork from the Sutcliffe era-the car was self sponsored apparently by Sutcliffe out of 'Sports Racing Centre Ltd', car owned by HA Sutcliffe Snr, driven and maintained by 'Fritz Sutcliffe'', the body work at that point claiming to be a BT21
Stickers are very tired though clearly visible is one referring to Kane, America City 1975 then Washington Water Power Company.
When I saw the car at Reno-Fearnley in the spring it looked correct in all respects to me.
The owner is very correct and quite unpushy about the car.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Jeremy

I can't find either Sutcliffe or Raney in SCCA nationals in the Pacific NW, though the latter's name is strangely familiar.

Are you thinking of Gerard Raney? 1970s Eagle F5000 driver?

[Denis Lupton]

Chris
I, too, have one Neil Hansen in this car at this time (1968), also Autosport, April 14,1967, Silverstone club opener has a photo of Norman Foulds in the David Bridges entered BT14, which I believe was FL-9-65. Bridges, 1967 to
Hansen ,1968, starts to fill holes,does'nt it ???
Cheers
Denis
PS I found Hansen from some Fast Freddie sales sheet's.