[BTCC] Brands Hatch 6/7 May 23, Rounds 4/5/6

[S griffin]

What a day of racing. Great win by Colin in the first race. Shows he still has it and is now second on the all time winners list.

The Ford seems to be a real title contender this year. Cammish is doing well and Sutton is showing his skill. Great drive through the field in R3 from P11. And what about Osborne? His podium in Donington seems to have made him raise his game. He's really giving it a go. Shame he threw it off in R3 when running well, would have been interesting to see how long he could keep other cars behind him

R3 was fun to watch, but it ended farcically. Personally I'm getting bored with hearing track limits all the time, not just in BTCC, but in every series from F1 down. I remember when it was just about corner cutting, now you can't run wide on any corner it seems. I felt the 10 second penalty for Collard was way too harsh anyway. Although I do agree his squeeze on Ash was over the top. Overall it's been good to see Ricky raise his game this year and vindicate him making a u-turn on his decision to leave

Good to see Bobby having a good weekend, he's definitely pushing above the car's weight it seems.

Quite a few things going wrong for cars in R3, seemed to be a case of survival of the fittest.

Great support race action. Bizarre to see the SC incident in the Porsches taking so long to be investigated and then decided. The Legends were fun to see, great action in all 3 races, shame it ended in a big crash at the end, but thanks to the strengths of the cars and the great work of the marshals all drivers got out unharmed

Anyway, next stop Snetterton. Can't wait to go see it live.

[BTCC frog]

I think if you watch this race knowing that track limits rules are in place, Ricky Collard's penalty was inevitable. Almost every lap he seemed to go all four wheels off the track at Paddock Hill Bend. It isn't fair that he should gain that advantage when Sutton stayed within track limits, so the penalty was inevitable. I am just thankful that Sutton and Collard decided to battle for the win on the road anyway, because that was outstanding racing.

But it does beg the question if we really need track limits rules at all in BTCC. I remember a race at COTA (but don't remember the series) where all the cars were flying a mile off the track at the penultimate corner because there were no track limits rules and that is obviously not what you want. But in the BTCC, there aren't really any corners where that is an option (with the possible exception of Copse, and I am not sure the wide line there is faster anyway). At Paddock Hill Bend, if there were no track limit rules and everyone was taking the Ricky Collard line, I don't think there would be anything wrong with that. So I think track limits rules could be relaxed at tracks like this where the grass mostly comes up to the edge of the track and prevents going off properly from giving anyone an advantage. There are some corners at other tracks, like Brooklands and Woodcote, for example, where cars can gain advantage by riding the inside curbs, but that is also bad for tyres so I think it would be fine to allow that as well, and generally only have track limits rules in BTCC for obviously cutting corners. The curbs could count as part of the tracks, as are the tiny amounts of run-off at Redgate and Paddock Hill Bend. Maybe Copse could be the only corner with actual track limit rules.

Also, I believe Ash Sutton scored 62 points this weekend, which is the highest ever in the BTCC (although adjusted for the current points system, Dan Eaves and Jason Plato would have had 64 in their clean-sweep weekends). Sutton has been the class of the field for a few years now, but in a season with relatively little performance-balancing compared to the past, and where he once again seems to have what looks like the fastest car (as opposed to last year when the BMW and the Hyundai were much better, and the changing fortunes of Cammish and Osborne this year show just how much the Ford has improved), we could see a dominant campaign from Ash Sutton. But because it is predominantly the driver rather than the car, and the reversed-grids will mean he still has to really show his talent in racecraft, while there are still top drivers like Ingram, Hill, Turkington and Cammish to make it hard for him, it would be impressive domination rather than boring domination.

[Lancsbreaker]

I strongly disagree with the concept that there should be different rules - particularly on track limits - specifically for BTCC. Whilst all of us can on occasion run wide, doing it systematically is obviously because it is considered to gain an advantage - and those who breach rules should not be rewarded.



It is well known that many drivers in "lesser" categories look to driving standards in BTCC to justify their conduct in their own series, and encouraging a laissez-faire attitude to rules can never be a good thing....


I do still think that the new limits rules/penalties are ill thought out, as notifying drivers of their breach(es) is very problematic when there is no radio communication to the competitor - many flag signalling positions are badly sited for drivers in intense competition to clearly see.

[Greem]

It was NASCAR at CoTA. They decided "if it's paved it's drivable", and complete chaos ensued!

Anyway. For the avoidance of doubt, the rules are that cars must stay inside the white line or the painted kerb. If any part of a tyre exceeds that position, that's an infringement.

Unfortunately you contradicted yourself there though - if Sutton could manage the entire race, battling away with Collard, and *not* breach the track limits rule, surely he showed that it's (a) completely possible and (b) that the rule is needed. Would Collard have stayed ahead if he'd stayed within the rules?

There are loads of places on tracks where driving across the grass could (note "could") be quicker than staying on the track surface, but what would be the point? It's cheating. It's also potentially dangerous, as we saw with Rowbottom's race 1 incident.

I'm as fed up as anyone with the issue, tbh. If they were running on street circuits they wouldn't do it!

[Akrapovic]

I felt Collards interview was a disgrace and Sutton came across as a bad winner from his comments "Well he spent more time off the track than on it" and other snide remarks. Chilton was much more reserved and respectable.

I dislike this attitude that modern touring car drivers seem to have, that they feel the need to be a bit of a dick.

[Mike Harte]

About Collard's exits from Paddock Hill, he was only able to maintain his speed through the bend because he was, physically, able to exceed the track limit. If he hadn't done that lap after lap, he would have had to reduce his entry speed and would, probably and rather than possibly, have not been able to defend his position from a driver of the calibre of Sutton. And his squeezing of Sutton on to the grass at the end was disgraceful.

I do think that Sutton's comments to Louise at the end were rather tongue in cheek after he had been frustrated by Collard's abuse of track limits.

As to the shenanigans in the pit lane checks at the end of the race, he really had no excuse, nor did the team, because the race director had put up the notification on the gantry before he crossed the line. That notification board is there for a reason, and he should have been aware and taking notice of the message.

[CarfanLUFC]

Whether it's a complete miss-communication or Collard getting it wrong going into the inspection lane that official was completely out of order, slamming his door twice and unleashing a tirade of unneeded abuse.

Sam Riches I believe? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....

[WestHam92]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I felt Collards interview was a disgrace and Sutton came across as a bad winner from his comments "Well he spent more time off the track than on it" and other snide remarks. Chilton was much more reserved and respectable.

I dislike this attitude that modern touring car drivers seem to have, that they feel the need to be a bit of a dick.

Maybe they should take a leaf out of Ingram's book and at least pretend to be nice.

The nastiness is a bit OTT at times with some of them - maybe they're trying a bit too hard to create a story when the on track action speaks for itself.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

Whether it's a complete miss-communication or Collard getting it wrong going into the inspection lane that official was completely out of order, slamming his door twice and unleashing a tirade of unneeded abuse.

Sam Riches I believe? People in glass houses shouldn't through stones, absolute state of the bloke.

I'm just watching the post-race shenanigans (because I didn't watch it yesterday).

Originally Posted by Motorsport UK Yearbook 2023 (amended 20-04-2023)

Q 32.1.4. Competitors and their service/pit assistants must at all times obey the instructions of an authorised official of the meeting.

It appears to me that when Sam Riches stood in Collard's way and Collard did not move away, that he'd also be in breach of that regulation. It looks from the TV that there was a very heated conversation and I would expect that both ends of it were equally rough. Riches appeared to be on the radio several times, presumably up to Ian Watson.

Bit of a mess, really.

[Robin Marriott]

I was a bit surprised that they don’t do the post race checks on the car which crosses the line first, regardless of penalties. Should the result be contested at some point and the win reinstated, there’s no way of knowing if the car was legal.

If they’d have just done the checks on the top 4, there would have been no argument from anyone, no waggling of arms, no slamming of doors…

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Robin Marriott

I was a bit surprised that they don’t do the post race checks on the car which crosses the line first, regardless of penalties. Should the result be contested at some point and the win reinstated, there’s no way of knowing if the car was legal.

If they’d have just done the checks on the top 4, there would have been no argument from anyone, no waggling of arms, no slamming of doors…

On this occasion, there wouldn't be an appeal as the MSA has ruled that they are not permitted for track limit infringements. That is assuming that TOCA are following that procedure. And as Greem says, he should have just followed instructions, which his team should have confirmed and told him to do.

All cars are examined after the race to confirm that they still meet the regulations. The first three are given the part examination on the pit lane because they are driven to a specific point on the pit lane, whilst the rest go into parc perme conditionsin their respective garages and are checked later.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by CarfanLUFC

Whether it's a complete miss-communication or Collard getting it wrong going into the inspection lane that official was completely out of order, slamming his door twice and unleashing a tirade of unneeded abuse.

Sam Riches I believe? People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....

What "tirade of unneeded abuse" did he unleash, or are just assuming that from his body language?

Sam Riches pushed the door closed, he didn't slam the door, although if you've every watched Louise doing a grid walk you'd have noticed that you do need to give the door a firm shove to make sure it closes properly.

Riches had already signally to Collard several times that he needed to drive round, but instead he just sat there blocking up the pit entrance. Collard just needed to do as he was instructed and get out of the way. What Riches did was entirely correct in the circumstances.

[SR18]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I think if you watch this race knowing that track limits rules are in place, Ricky Collard's penalty was inevitable. Almost every lap he seemed to go all four wheels off the track at Paddock Hill Bend. It isn't fair that he should gain that advantage when Sutton stayed within track limits, so the penalty was inevitable. I am just thankful that Sutton and Collard decided to battle for the win on the road anyway, because that was outstanding racing.

But it does beg the question if we really need track limits rules at all in BTCC. I remember a race at COTA (but don't remember the series) where all the cars were flying a mile off the track at the penultimate corner because there were no track limits rules and that is obviously not what you want. But in the BTCC, there aren't really any corners where that is an option (with the possible exception of Copse, and I am not sure the wide line there is faster anyway). At Paddock Hill Bend, if there were no track limit rules and everyone was taking the Ricky Collard line, I don't think there would be anything wrong with that. So I think track limits rules could be relaxed at tracks like this where the grass mostly comes up to the edge of the track and prevents going off properly from giving anyone an advantage. There are some corners at other tracks, like Brooklands and Woodcote, for example, where cars can gain advantage by riding the inside curbs, but that is also bad for tyres so I think it would be fine to allow that as well, and generally only have track limits rules in BTCC for obviously cutting corners. The curbs could count as part of the tracks, as are the tiny amounts of run-off at Redgate and Paddock Hill Bend. Maybe Copse could be the only corner with actual track limit rules.

Also, I believe Ash Sutton scored 62 points this weekend, which is the highest ever in the BTCC (although adjusted for the current points system, Dan Eaves and Jason Plato would have had 64 in their clean-sweep weekends). Sutton has been the class of the field for a few years now, but in a season with relatively little performance-balancing compared to the past, and where he once again seems to have what looks like the fastest car (as opposed to last year when the BMW and the Hyundai were much better, and the changing fortunes of Cammish and Osborne this year show just how much the Ford has improved), we could see a dominant campaign from Ash Sutton. But because it is predominantly the driver rather than the car, and the reversed-grids will mean he still has to really show his talent in racecraft, while there are still top drivers like Ingram, Hill, Turkington and Cammish to make it hard for him, it would be impressive domination rather than boring domination.

IMSA, 2015 or 2014 I think

[mick bennett]

Riches was simply doing his job.

Collard was in meltdown, which continued in the later shown interview as well. About time he showed himself to a proffessional driver not a schoolboy. He did the same tantrum at the last race of last year, saying he was'nt coming back this year.

He needs fining/points by BTCC or whoever deals with such behaviour, before it goes even further.

[Michael Foley]

Originally Posted by mick bennett

Riches was simply doing his job.

Collard was in meltdown, which continued in the later shown interview as well. About time he showed himself to a proffessional driver not a schoolboy. He did the same tantrum at the last race of last year, saying he was'nt coming back this year.

He needs fining/points by BTCC or whoever deals with such behaviour, before it goes even further.

can't stand the Collard family, but I can't find any fault in his reaction.

what happened in the inpection lane was uncalled for by the offical , made things worse

if you are going to take action against Collard, should have done it to the other 150 track limit infringements.
They was looking at sutton too.

[Michael Foley]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I felt Collards interview was a disgrace and Sutton came across as a bad winner from his comments "Well he spent more time off the track than on it" and other snide remarks. Chilton was much more reserved and respectable.

I dislike this attitude that modern touring car drivers seem to have, that they feel the need to be a bit of a dick.

Sutton is just a poundshop plato,
Plato was the goat at being the villain,
sutton is what you would call in wrestling a chicken **** heel

[Michael Foley]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

According to Tim Harvey, that would have been after the 4th or 5th warning or notification to Collard and the team that he had gone beyond track limits. Having watched both Collard and Sutton in line astern, it was very noticeable that Sutton did not stray over the line anywhere near as much as Collard.

Collard needs to be aware that the rules apply to all the drivers, not just him. Also, I thought that his squeezing Sutton on to the grass on the pit straight was very bad form; the rules forbid that when alongside your competitor. A 10 second penalty, IMHO, would have been justified just for that alone.

the rules need to be applied to all drivers, collard wasn't the only one over track limits, seems like the bus wanted an easy weekend instead of giving out 150 time pens

[Aysedasi]

I'm not a regular BTCC watcher, but I watched the last race today and I was really surprised that there were so many obvious track limits infringements that went unpunished.... Until they gave a penalty to Collard I thought they just weren't bothering to hand them out as going off track was somehow 'fair game'. I turned off shortly after the end of the race so didn't see any of the other 'action'....

[hen henths]

Another enjoyable weekend of racing.

Those FWD Fords have found levels of performance and handling this year that I wasn't sure was possible, considering how the Focus has done in the past up to last year and the rumours the team were looking at other cars. Nice work.

Obviously well done to Ash but Osborne was particularly impressive as well. Great to see Turks get a win. Jelley's rotten luck seems to have found him again. Thompson and Pearson were good. I was hoping for more from Watson this time.

I've never been a fan of the option tyre. I was surprised how much the soft tyre seemed to help drivers through the whole race, at least at this track, which the commentators said several times. Maybe I'm misremembering but my past recollection of it over the years was that the medium tyre was generally preferred by drivers because the soft tended to wear out too much towards the end of the race.

I thought that was why the drivers typically saved the soft for race 3 because those races are more unpredictable and harder to win consistently so there's less at stake statistically when the tyres wear out. Maybe they improved the compound this year?

Regarding the track limits controversy, I think Tim Harvey made a great point that we want to see drivers racing on the limit and when they do that, tyres will inevitably slip over the lines a little bit sometimes, otherwise we get processional races. The old rules were arguably a lot better, but either way, they need to be enforced consistently.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by hen henths

Regarding the track limits controversy, I think Tim Harvey made a great point that we want to see drivers racing on the limit and when they do that, tyres will inevitably slip over the lines a little bit sometimes, otherwise we get processional races. The old rules were arguably a lot better, but either way, they need to be enforced consistently.

They *are* enforced as consistently as humanly possible. It was a while back but over the course of 2 days I reported almost 900 track limits infringements at a single meeting. I almost lost my voice - but several drivers lost their results by doing what they were doing. It was easier that weekend to report who *wasn't* over the line (and that was back in the old "entire car has to be over the limit" days).

Series like British GT are pretty draconian when it comes to track limits. There's someone in race control keeping a tally, and there is no room to manoeuvre or appeal - it's black and white.

IMO the green concrete is the principal issue. It prevents incidents, sure, but it gives a bit of leeway that the drivers can then get punished for. Bring the gravel or grass back to the edge of the track or kerb and you no longer have a problem, but you simply replace track limits with broken cars/bikes and people not finishing races.

If there was an easy solution, it would have been done already!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Greem

I'm just watching the post-race shenanigans (because I didn't watch it yesterday).



It appears to me that when Sam Riches stood in Collard's way and Collard did not move away, that he'd also be in breach of that regulation. It looks from the TV that there was a very heated conversation and I would expect that both ends of it were equally rough. Riches appeared to be on the radio several times, presumably up to Ian Watson.

Bit of a mess, really.

I didn't see Collards interview but gather he had a meltdown and was an arse about it all. But frankly, the way the official acted kicking the door closed was also a disgrace.

Honestly, this appears to be a BTCC wide issue. The amount of sheer arrogance and attitude throughout the paddock is firmly putting me off this series.

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by Greem

They *are* enforced as consistently as humanly possible.

Thanks, I didn't mean to imply they aren't. I didn't have enough information to judge that either way.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Honestly, this appears to be a BTCC wide issue. The amount of sheer arrogance and attitude throughout the paddock is firmly putting me off this series.

Out of interest, who else are you referring to? Seems like those at the front do genuinely get on with each other, for the most part. Sutton and Ingram in particular seem to be very friendly. Even ‘arrogant’ personalities like Hill or Cammish I think have presented themselves much better of late.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Out of interest, who else are you referring to? Seems like those at the front do genuinely get on with each other, for the most part. Sutton and Ingram in particular seem to be very friendly. Even ‘arrogant’ personalities like Hill or Cammish I think have presented themselves much better of late.

Suttons comments regarding Collard were poor. The only thing worse than a bad loser is a bad winner. Collard of course had a complete meltdown. Cammish and Hill aren't the nicest people in the paddock. They've presented themselves "better" by their standards for sure, but compared to actually nice people? Thankfully we're no longer treated to the wonders of Jason Plato taking up a microphone to tell us his opinion. But we've still got George Gamble on the grid - who i think has the honour of being the only man on the grid to be banned for drink driving and failing to report an incident. Stand-up fella.

This attitude comes through even in the commentary box and broadcast, with constant references to other series and how great BTCC is compared to everything else. I don't need Tim and Steve to tell me it's much better than F1. You don't need to advertise it. I'm already watching it for crying out loud. All you're doing is patting yourselves in the back. Stop talking about other series (there are a couple of other series also guilty of this - it's not just a BTCC issue).

BTCC is becoming a bit of a parody. I've found myself watching less and less because the people involved just don't seem that nice tbh. Except Ingram - who just seems like a lovely chap.

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This attitude comes through even in the commentary box and broadcast, with constant references to other series and how great BTCC is compared to everything else. I don't need Tim and Steve to tell me it's much better than F1. You don't need to advertise it. I'm already watching it for crying out loud.

To be fair there are a lot of motorsport fans around that don't regularly watch the BTCC, so I think a lot of the comments for the benefit of new or occasional viewers make perfect sense. I do understand how it can become irritating for some people but those kinds of positive statements probably do work for many viewers that know nothing about the series.