Brabham BT15

[CB3]

Hi, Pat- I'm the new owner of the "other" AM32, the car recently sold
out of Colorado. I purchased the car as a race car, with the spotted
history that race cars accumulate, and in no way mean to disparage
the history and provenance of your car, as you have obviously made
extensive efforts to document. Nor am I attempting to usurp the identity of your car. That being said, my car has been deemed "real enough" for use at the US events I plan to participate in, has been itself vetted as real by respected US Brabham experts, accepted by Monoposto for Formula B grouping at said events, and I will establish it's history from now forward and be content with that.

The car wasn't bought as an investment piece, but rather as a means
to get on the race track in a type I love. Provenance is apparently taken a bit
differently in the US, and it is accepted that old race cars are
repaired, modified, and rebuilt till they may contain little of their
original content. This car was recently offered as an F3 "screamer",
but unfortunately F3 is not a popular or competitive class in the US.
Thus, the configuration in which Mr Arnold offered it, with the Twink.

The veracity of the frame number on the car is probably moot at this
point, and the car is obviously a Brabham. It is sporting said frame number, and I see no reason to remove it and once again alter the history of the car. I also see no reason this situation should be contentious- you are obviously a reasonable, knowledgable, straightforward, and well-respected gentleman. I would like to put together as much of the history of my assembled pile of bits as possible, and enjoy it for what it is, a race car. I plan on keeping it in my stable forever, and have no intentions of racing in Australia, so I see no reason why we can't be friendly fellow enthusiasts. If you wish, feel free to contact me at cb3@3wlogic.net and we'll chat.

[allenbrown]

Good to see 10 Tenths back to its highest standards of polite, reasoned conversation.

CB3, is you car a BT15 or a different model of Brabham? Could it be that the two of you have cars from different years of MRD production and that's why they both have the same AM number?

I think it was about 1971 before Arch Motors started to build the year or the model into the number they stamped. So the same AM stamping could exist on a Lotus FF, a Palliser, a Tui and a March 708 as well as a Brabham and any number of other cars. Without knowing exactly when Arch reset back to 1, the possibility remains that both your cars have entirely genuine stampings.

If one car is a BT15, could the other be a BT10 or a BT18? Or, if there is any truth that BT15s were produced in 1966 as well as 1965 (I have my doubts), it is possible two BT15s were built with the same AM number.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Good to see 10 Tenths back to its highest standards of polite, reasoned conversation.

(…) if there is any truth that BT15s were produced in 1966 as well as 1965 (I have my doubts), it is possible two BT15s were built with the same AM number.

There is good evidence from period observation that they were. F1R cites chassis numbers in 66 for BT15s that can't be incorrectly attributed BT18s or 1965 production BT15

I think that this is, indeed a good explanation for the duplication of the AM number

Chris

[CB3]

For what it's worth, this was posted on another site:
I have known of the whereabouts of this car since the late 80's when it was owned by David Dexter. It is a real car, that has kicked around all apart for a very long time. Chassis number unknown, does have an AM number stamped in the frame, definitely a real Brabham.

David Irwin

___

David Irwin <br />Irwin Engineering Ltd. <br />1238 Shepherds Mill Rd. <br />Berryville, Va. 22611 <br /><br />540-327-1669 Cell <br />540-955-1624 Fax

[tim beardsley]

bt 15 f3-33-66
Ian Beardsley we think at Harewood early 1970s

Tim

[tim beardsley]

Cant do this picture thing but this is a link to flickr
http://www.flickr.com/photos/62622623@N04/5699723305/

Cheers Tim

[Sandra Secombe]

Hi,

Have just seen John Saunder's pics from 1970s of Mike Brett driving his
Brabham BT15. Can anyone tell me if this is the same Mike Brett who was with the Firestone European Racing division in Brentford Middlesex during
the 1960s-70s? If so, would like to hear what became of him after the
closure of Firestone. I worked closely with him in the Firestone plant but
lost touch. Thanks in anticipation.
Sandra

[Unit 2 Racing]

Sorry, the Mike Brett in our BT15 was an electrical contractor from Hertfordshire.

[f3guide]

I got a copy of the original "ONS-Wagenpass" from the current owner of the car. The first owner was Manfred Mohr with Swiss documents, so the records begin in 1966 with Dieter Bentz.

The car crashed in late 69 or early 70 and was repaired with a BT18 chassis and run then sometimes as BT15 or mostly BT18. The current owner, a guy named Reuscher had therefore problems to get new papers from the German DMSB, because under BT18 the car had not enough international starts.

1965: Manfred Mohr
1966-1967: Dieter Bentz (circuit and hill-climbs)
1968-1969: Karl Starke (circuit and hill-climbs)
crashed and rebuild as "BT18"
1970 until August: Rainer Kaese (circuit and hill-climbs)
1970 from September -1972: Karl Meißner (mostly hill-climbs)

[flightlessbird]

BT15 F3-3-65 Jim Sullivan then to Geoff Oliver, I think then to Fred Opert, to Joe Bosworth? Now resident in Sydney Australia

[gdell]

Chris Townsend asks re Bt 15/3,ownership. 1965 Promecon 1966-1970,probably a Irwin 1970 Fred Opert USA.1970 to 2011 Joe Bosworth Australia 2011 to now Graham Dell Australia. Car is completely disassembled and needs a complete restoration although it is in very complete and sound condition.

[tim beardsley]

More pics of f3-33-66 on my flickr site

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62622623@N04/

Ta Tim

[Robert_R]

Here's the history of chassis number F3-21-65:

--------------------------------------

First owner, who bought the car from the Brabham factory in early 1965: Jørgen Ellekær from Denmark. Ellekær had entered the car in various F3 races in Denmark, Sweden and Germany in 1965, and won the Danish F3 championship:

May 02 1965 
XI Åbningslobet, Roskilde (DK) 
2nd place

May 23 1965 
Velodromloppet, Karlskoga (S) 
3rd place

June 13 1965 
IX Copenhagen Cup, Roskilde (DK) 
4th place

June 27 1965 
XVIII Avus-Rennen, Berlin (D) 
2nd place (pole position in practice)

August 08 1965 
XIV Kanonloppet, Karlskoga (S) 
5th place

August 15 1965 
Copenhagen GP, Roskilde (DK) 
5th place

August 29 1965 
XIX Avus-Rennen, GP Formel 3, Berlin (D) 
3rd place (fastest race lap)

September 05 1965 
Skarpnäck, Stockholm (S) 
20th place

September 12 1965 
I Knutstorp Cup, Knutstorp (S) 
15th place

September 26 1965 
Danmarksmesterskaber, Roskilde (DK) 
3rd place (winner Danish F3 championship)

--------------------------------------

After this race he sold the car to Georg Duneborn (Sweden).

Duneborn entered it in only one race:

October 24 1965 
XV Skarpnäcksloppet, Stockholm (S) 
2nd place

The car was painted white in 1965. Pictures are visible in the fantastic book ‚De Tre Racermusketerer' by Carsten Frimodt, ISBN: 9788798972556, GT-FORLAG

--------------------------------------

1966
Duneborn sells the car to Eddie Levin, Stockholm (S)
Levin does some races:

April 24 1966
III Hyllingeloppet, Knutstorp (S)
race no. 18, 4th place

May 1 1966
Stockholmsloppet, Skarpnäck, Stockholm (S)
8th place

May 8 1966
Velodromloppet, Karlskoga (S)
race no. 16, 8th place

July 3 1966
Bengtsforsloppet, Dalslandring (S)
race no. 1, 10th place

August 20-21 1966
Jysk GP, Jyllandsringen (DK)
race no. 13 (?), 7th place

August 28 1966
Course de Ring, Knutstorp (S)
race no. 37 (he is listed as DNA ?)

September 25 1966
SM för Bilar, Rd 6, Dalslandring (S)
race no. 19 (he was listed as 21st place)

--------------------------------------

early 1967
Levin sells the car to an unknown person in Skälby (S)

--------------------------------------

1967
the unknown person sells car to Jonas Qvarnström, Stockholm (S)

--------------------------------------

November 1967
Qvarnström sells the car to Bertil Svenfjord, Gothenburg (S)
Colour: orange.
Svenfjord raced in 1968 in some races:

May 4 1968
Velodromloppet Gelleråsen, Karlskoga (S)
Juniorer, 6 laps (18 km)
race no. 57, club: BMC, team: Dalsland Ring

June 16 1968
Premiärtävling, Anderstorp (S)
race no. 43

June 30 1968
Dalslandring (S)

--------------------------------------

August 1969
Svenfjord exchanges the car and his small transporter for a Mercedes to Sven Andersson from Gothenburg (S).

--------------------------------------

Autumn 1969
Andersson sells the car to Leif Mårtensson (S).

Mårtensson tests the car a few times at Sviestad racetrack and at the new race track Mantorp Park, which opened in spring 1970. He keeps the car over the winter.

--------------------------------------

Early spring 1970
Bo Elvung (Sweden) buys the car from Leif Mårtensson at Sviestad race track near Linköping. Elvung owns the car for a very short time.

--------------------------------------

1970
Ove Jacobson (Virserum, Sweden) buys the car, still painted orange, from Elvung and converts it to Formula Ford 1600

--------------------------------------

1971 - 1973 Antoni Chlapowski (Sweden)
still as FF 1600

--------------------------------------

1974 - 1994
Bengt Ljungberg (Sweden)

--------------------------------------

1995 - October 2006
Christer Lofthammar (Jönköping, Sweden)
Mr Lofthammar restored the car back to Formula 3 configuration. Then he raced the car in some historic race meetings in Sweden, for example:
August 30-31 1997
Mantorp Park (S)
Automobil Sports Car Show
race no. 62, 11th place in Saturday and Sunday races

--------------------------------------

October 2006 - today
R. Retzlaff (Germany)

[Andy Clegg]

Originally Posted by Alan Brown

This car was raced in the Peter Hanson Trophy at Brands Hatch in June by Max Blees. He said that it had gone from Switzerland to USA.

The other BT15 in the race was Peter Williams' which carries a "modern" plate BT15-7-65.

Alan Brown

This photo is of Peter Williams at Donington Park in 2002

[Andy Clegg]

This photo is of James Long Brabham BT15 (997cc 1965) again at Donington Park in 2002

[pantah]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

There is good evidence from period observation that they were. F1R cites chassis numbers in 66 for BT15s that can't be incorrectly attributed BT18s or 1965 production BT15

I think that this is, indeed a good explanation for the duplication of the AM number

Chris

I have now purchased this car as a roller and it is on its way back to the UK. it will have a side draft 1000cc F3 engine re-installed, as it would have been originally.

[pantah]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

More from the very helpful Mr Lupton:

BT15 F3-3-65 Jim Sullivan then to Geoff Oliver, I think then to Fred Opert, to Joe Bosworth?

BT15 F3-22-65 First owner Trevor Blokdyk

BT15 F3-33-65 Winfield Racing Mike Knight

This appearance of F3-33-65 in Denis's notes is particularly interesting.

Denis also mentioned that 'the English monthly mag "Motor Racing" (December 1965 p500) shows a photo of 4 BT15's being tested and delivered to Fangio,
to be sent to Argentina, with an order being placed for 4 more, which were subsequently delivered'. Denis believes the higher number of 58 BT15s is correct and quotes George Thornton's book as giving the higher number.

George Thornton, for those of you new to the name, kept detailed records of every car leaving MRD. I have seen some of his records but the fate of this book following his death some years ago is a mystery.

Allen

I found this....... in relation to Fangio and BT15's

[M J Smith]

Raced a mk 2 U2 in 1965 & 66 then I bought in 1966 a BT 9 F3 from David Wragg which I sold to Fred Opert in early 1967 when I joined David Bridges Racing to race his BT 18 F3 which Brian Redman raced a couple of times,at my second meeting in the car I was cut out of it from the wood at the top of clay hill Oulton Park in March 67
A BT 21 was bought for me which I raced in Denmark ,Barcelona ,Monaco,Chimay, Caserta and in the UK.
After the deaths at Caserta I retired before it was my turn! Norman Foulds took over the seat and raced it in 67 & 68
In 1996 and 1997 raced the ex works lotus 59 of James Wigmore winning the classic racing F3 class in 97
Hope this will fill in a few of your gaps
Malcolm Smith

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by M J Smith

Raced a mk 2 U2 in 1965 & 66 then I bought in 1966 a BT 9 F3 from David Wragg which I sold to Fred Opert in early 1967 when I joined David Bridges Racing to race his BT 18 F3 which Brian Redman raced a couple of times,at my second meeting in the car I was cut out of it from the wood at the top of clay hill Oulton Park in March 67
A BT 21 was bought for me which I raced in Denmark ,Barcelona ,Monaco,Chimay, Caserta and in the UK.
After the deaths at Caserta I retired before it was my turn! Norman Foulds took over the seat and raced it in 67 & 68
In 1996 and 1997 raced the ex works lotus 59 of James Wigmore winning the classic racing F3 class in 97
Hope this will fill in a few of your gaps
Malcolm Smith

Would you be the person who advertised a Brabham BT9 from Rookwood, Clitheroe, Lancs in November 1966? Of so, I am writing a history of that car at the moment and it's currently being restored in Gloucestershire.

[M J Smith]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Would you be the person who advertised a Brabham BT9 from Rookwood, Clitheroe, Lancs in November 1966? Of so, I am writing a history of that car at the moment and it's currently being restored in Gloucestershire.

Happy to have a chat or come done to have a look at my old BT9
07802921872 Malcolm Smith

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by M J Smith

Happy to have a chat or come done to have a look at my old BT9
07802921872 Malcolm Smith

Amazing! I'll give you a call tomorrow

Allen

[M J Smith]

Originally Posted by M J Smith

Happy to have a chat or come done to have a look at my old BT9
07802921872 Malcolm Smith

There were two BT 15 twin cams delivered in 1965 to John Butterworth and Fred Smith, John's with a steel crank and Fred's without.
However there was a mix up with the wrong engine fitted to John's, the mistake wasn't picked up until his engine blew up!
Butterworth's car was fitted with a super charged engine.
John Butterworth hill climbed his , whilst Fred both hill climbed and raced his.
In 1970 John Brown bought a twin cam BT15 which I tested at Croft.this is the car that John Ravenscroft bought from him

[allenbrown]

Thanks for all this and thanks again for your time when we spoke this morning.

The Ravenscroft Brabham twin cam would be the ex-Tony Griffith/Gray & Agnes Mickel/Griffith again/Chris Court car - a BT21A I believe.

We're still trying to get our heads around Norman Foulds' Brabhams. At Brands Hatch in Jan 1967, which would be after your BT9 but before the David Bridges BT18, you raced a Brabham and Autosport said "Malcolm Smith in Nick Foulds' BT15". I'm sure they meant Norman, not Nick, but were they right that you were driving his car?

[pantah]

Hi there Pat,

I thought I'd make contact to try and put this matter to rest, and you must understand I am in no way trying to usurp your cars' identity, or cast doubt on your research, I simply want to find out the truth. There are just a couple of questions which may help me correctly identify the car with AM-32 chassis stamp, which is now in my ownership back in the UK. I will deal one-by one from your original post:

Close inspection of the US car will reveal that it is not a 1965 BT15 frame. 15’s were built in 65 and 66 remember.

May I respectfully ask who inspected on your behalf the chassis of the US car and concluded it is not a 1965 BT15 frame? I would like to contact that person with a view to comparing findings with a couple of highly respected Brabham chassis experts here in the UK.... now that the chassis is stripped and ready for crack testing /blasting / powder-coating - this is an ideal opportunity to compare notes, and compare with another two BT15's we have access to.

I also wonder why, when the car only ever ran as F3 in England and FC in America the US a car with patently incorrect chassis and twin cam engine that it never used in the day is given any credence anyway.

You will find many such examples of 1960's F3 cars now running twincams, particularly here in the UK in the HSCC Classic Racing Car series. I think there are a lot of respected and talented owner / drivers that might take exception to your statement regarding credence of cars now sporting twincams. The fact that the US AM-32 car had one does not in any way call into question its provenance. If you were referring to its BT18 rear uprights, and the consequential re-location of the radius arm mountings on the chassis, you will find they were a modification / upgrade available in-period (I am told).

My car has almost bullet proof provenance except for 1966-74 and its US log books from 1974.

Might I ask precisely what you purchased, in other words, I assume you bought a complete car: chassis, wheels, engine, gearbox, bodywork, suspension, brakes, steering rack, radiator, piping, seat, Brabham steering wheel, and the US Logbooks?

If I have been sold a fake, I will clearly be found-out by the experts here in the UK, and you will have been proven correct.... however, it has been suggested that Arch Motors made a batch of frames in 1965 and another batch in1966, leads to the fact under their frame numbering system, there would have been two frames bearing the AM-32 stamp..... perhaps?

[pantah]

Sorry - meant to attach these. One showing AM-32 frame stamp, and the other taken in the US when the car was owned by John Arnold - fitted with 1000cc MAE Side-draft engine.

If you look closely, you can see where the radius arm mountings were originally, and also where the roll-hoop stay had an alternative mounting point to facilitate the fitting of a downdraft MAE..... so that the stay did not interfere with the vertical carburettor.