LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[nobster]

Originally Posted by GT6

Well we will shortly see how good the rebellion R1 is, i hope it springs a few surprises

I think we all do Simon, another good reason to put our old Rebellion shirt back on!

[GT6]

Originally Posted by nobster

I think we all do Simon, another good reason to put our old Rebellion shirt back on!

was wearing mine on Sunday but it was underneath a jumper and thick coat

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by isynge

But if you can't afford the time or financial commitments the WEC demands (see demise of Pecom) then LMP2 is the top class, and in an environment as competitive as the ELMS today teams may see an advantage in going with something derived from a P1 to give them the edge.

Not sure Pecom is a good example as Perez-Companc is back running in the WEC in the #61 Ferrari

[Ken_T]

The idea of dropping a DP body on a P2 car for branding seems a not stupid to me. I don't think people interested in buying a Corvette look at the Red Dragon's stickers and say "Cool I need to buy me one of them Corvettes." At least not sports car fans. They would gravitate towards the GTLM car. Perhaps there are Nascar fans that look at a Camry with its stickers, solid rear axle, no tech and say they need a Camry with independent everything, stability control etc. Sportscar fans like the technology and engineering prowess that is displayed on the track. Audi sells cars because they show the capability to have the technology and make it last at Lemans for 24 hours, not because there is a headlight sticker that looks like an S5.

If they do want a Corvette DP body on a P2 tub, I hope they don't dumb down the BOP so everyone else with solid aero designs have to match the pace of a DP brick.

It also would not surprise me after all the rules are done and the cars are built, Elkins sends out a memo the day before the roar stating that all P cars would have to run with a Crawford single element wing in Tuscc.

[Mike E]

What about the cost cap in P2? Could a P1 manufacturer, or even Rebellion, actually make any money by selling chassis to P2 entrants?

True, the development costs are already sunk, but the production process isn't geared around meeting the cap with a bit of a margin.

[GT6]

But the P2 teams will have to buy a chassis off someone so how does that effect the costs

[Mike E]

The P2 teams are buying chassis off constructors that design and build them to cost less than the cap so they can make a profit on each sale. Could a P1 chassis be sold at a profit if it was sold on at the cap price? Presumably a P1 costs more to build than the level of the P2 cost cap (something like €450,000 for a complete car - with engine).

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The P2 teams are buying chassis off constructors that design and build them to cost less than the cap so they can make a profit on each sale. Could a P1 chassis be sold at a profit if it was sold on at the cap price? Presumably a P1 costs more to build than the level of the P2 cost cap (something like €450,000 for a complete car - with engine).

I can't see it necessarily being a runner for new-builds, but for year old chassis it would serve to get a bit of payback on the investment, which might be more lucrative than trying to go after the collector market.

[Mike E]

Fair point. And since we are in the realms of the hypothetical, would a year old P1 have to be sold at the cap price? Otherwise a team could be faced with the options of buying a new ORECA at the cap or last year's Audi at a knockdown price (relatively speaking), thus making ORECA's life very difficult.

I'm glad I don't write the rules.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Fair point. And since we are in the realms of the hypothetical, would a year old P1 have to be sold at the cap price? Otherwise a team could be faced with the options of buying a new ORECA at the cap or last year's Audi at a knockdown price (relatively speaking), thus making ORECA's life very difficult.

I'm glad I don't write the rules.

Interesting one to legislate around, but one that might be fixed by the market.

So - manufacturer P1s may either have such tight engine packaging that fitting a Nissan P2 motor in place of the P1 hybrid just wouldn't work, so it's less appealing to a P2 runner, for whom the Oreca or similar would be a less compromised package.

Alternative, the manufacturer may not want their chassis to run in LMP2 for risk of reputational damage. So, even if the engine packaging could be sorted (not impossible), while an Audi might be fine in the hands of a Jota, I can't see Ingolstadt being enthused by the prospect of Ian Dawson laying his hands on one and strapping a tractor engine into it.

There's also the propensity of the sportscar owner to periodically go for something a bit different. I recall Creation boss Mike Jankowski opining that it was much more fun to own a historic Courage Group C car than a Porsche 962, partly because it was different and attracted more attention. In the same way, Mike Newton is cheerfully trying to bring a Tiga to the grid when inherently it would be quicker, easier, and probably more competitive to go down the Oreca or Morgan route.

[Koenigsegg]

Ligier JS P2 development to be supported by Nissan.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/nissa...-ligier-js-p2/

I'm guessing Onroak Automotive found their manufacturer for LMP1.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Ligier JS P2 development to be supported by Nissan.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/nissa...-ligier-js-p2/

I'm guessing Onroak Automotive found their manufacturer for LMP1.

I was going to say that I can't see anyone grumbling too much about this, but I'm sure I'll be proven wrong.

The Ligier looks like a well founded programme in terms of getting early onto the track and testing, and if it gets the leg up from Nissan to continue development as a P2 fantastic, and if it morphs into a P1 so much the better.

[Mike E]

Really loking forward to seeing how the Ligier and Dome stack up against Morgan, ORECA and Zytek at LM this year.

Anyone heard any more about the Pilbeam MP100? It's all gone very quiet.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Koenigsegg

Ligier JS P2 development to be supported by Nissan.
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/nissa...-ligier-js-p2/

I'm guessing Onroak Automotive found their manufacturer for LMP1.

I can smell Nissan borrowing Ligier's design for their LMP1 project in the future. Then again, that would pose some problems like what they did to the ZEOD/Deltawing thing.

[nobster]

P2 is looking great with lots of different cars.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

I can smell Nissan borrowing Ligier's design for their LMP1 project in the future. Then again, that would pose some problems like what they did to the ZEOD/Deltawing thing.

I think Nissan has plenty of talent but they may ask for some personnel for recent lmp chassis experience. It could be a good thing and lead to continued involvement by both? If they dont go it alone I hope this becomes more.

[Maelochs]

What seems most likely to me is that Nissan will build the motor and fund the OnRoak car and call it a Nissan. Nissan hasn't shown any great propensity to spend a lot of money for prototypes, preferring to supply motors, which is a science a lot better understood.

I assume any hybrid research comes out of the R&D budget, and the company expects direct RoI, as opposed to the diffuse and unquantifiable RoI of "publicity" from racing.

Much better (As with the ZedWingOdd) to hire the folks who know how to do it and pay for the materials.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What seems most likely to me is that Nissan will build the motor and fund the OnRoak car and call it a Nissan. Nissan hasn't shown any great propensity to spend a lot of money for prototypes, preferring to supply motors, which is a science a lot better understood.

I assume any hybrid research comes out of the R&D budget, and the company expects direct RoI, as opposed to the diffuse and unquantifiable RoI of "publicity" from racing.

Much better (As with the ZedWingOdd) to hire the folks who know how to do it and pay for the materials.

Nissan has a bit of "previous" with this - the Group C cars in the late 1980s were Lola client productions, and I don't think anyone grumbled a huge amount about that.

If we end up in a situation where Nissan supply a solid engine and backing so the Onroak chassis gets developed to where it can I'll be delighted, if it then morphs into anything like an LMP1 I will literally dance in the street.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What seems most likely to me is that Nissan will build the motor and fund the OnRoak car and call it a Nissan. Nissan hasn't shown any great propensity to spend a lot of money for prototypes, preferring to supply motors, which is a science a lot better understood.

I assume any hybrid research comes out of the R&D budget, and the company expects direct RoI, as opposed to the diffuse and unquantifiable RoI of "publicity" from racing.

Much better (As with the ZedWingOdd) to hire the folks who know how to do it and pay for the materials.

Just out of curiosity what do you consider a lot of money, and how much do you think they have spent to develop and test the zeod? I have no idea but I bet it is comparable or more than what Rebellion have spent.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What seems most likely to me is that Nissan will build the motor and fund the OnRoak car and call it a Nissan. Nissan hasn't shown any great propensity to spend a lot of money for prototypes, preferring to supply motors, which is a science a lot better understood.

I assume any hybrid research comes out of the R&D budget, and the company expects direct RoI, as opposed to the diffuse and unquantifiable RoI of "publicity" from racing.

Much better (As with the ZedWingOdd) to hire the folks who know how to do it and pay for the materials.

Following on from @joeb's comments on this, there tends to be a vastly greater pressure on marketing to display near term ROI than there is on long term product development.

Marketing isn't always easy to quantify, especially in the B2C space Nissan is in, but there are metrics that will be being applied to whatever Nissan do here, be it airtime they derive, test drive requests, additional twitter followers or whatever, and I suspect Mr Cox is emphatically aware of what he has budget wise and what he's expected to deliver.

If Nissan corporately makes a decision to step up to a full LMP1 programme then don't expect it to be funded out of R&D - this would (and should) be a joined up corporate effort - look at what Porsche have done across multiple media channels with the Mission 2014 message - Nissan would do the same and more, because if they didn't the whole programme would be a waste of money.

[FstrthnU]

http://sportscar365.com/industry/smp...-car-for-2015/

As it turns out, that SMP LMP2 rumor was actually real. 2 Cars planned for 2015. Though no mention of engine supplier.

[Richard117]

During Spa practice Audi is tweeting about Audi. Jota is the only other team mentioned by them. What do you think, more links then just drivers between them or is this a hint for more?

[Koenigsegg]

Originally Posted by Richard117

During Spa practice Audi is tweeting about Audi. Jota is the only other team mentioned by them. What do you think, more links then just drivers between them or is this a hint for more?

Well, the colours of Jota's car are the Audi Sport colours. So I guess there's more to it then just drivers.

[Mike E]

ESM have ordered 2 new HPD coupes for next year. It would be great to see one or two of these in the WEC or at LM as well.

http://www.24h-lemans.com/en/news/tu...746_15141.html

[Deleted]

US entries have had the bad habit of rejecting LM entries in the last couple of years so... the confidence isn't particularly high. But I'd love to see that one for sure