the grid girl debate

[F1Pete]

I don’t remember if anyone asked the drivers and what their opinion is. I do remember Nico Rosberg complaining on global tv about the grid boys in Monaco.


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[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It wasn't just 'a four year old' it was his nephew. And since when has Hamilton been bullying others? Judging by the haters you get on social media it seems the other way round...

I think posting a video on the internet, knowing you have millions following you, saying "what you're doing is wrong" is bullying. I don't think Lewis has a habit of bullying, certainly not. But what he did was a bit pathetic, especially for someone who dresses like he wants, goes out of his way to be different, and frankly, has played the "I'm being bullied" card before.

What this has to do with the thread is just a general discussion of how we treat women and how motorsport views certain things. We use women as decoration, and our star driver shames people who dress differently.

Some may not have a problem with that, but some do.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bella

meh. it has nothing to do with sexual identity in any shape or form. it's more "why men are ******s: a discussion"

whilst we still use women as decoration and trophies, no matter their attire, how can we expect our drivers and for that matter, all staff, to have a solid balanced view of women in the same way they have of men.

let's be real. easily 50% of fellas in the western world would have reacted the same, but very few would be in the position to be called out for it like lewis is being. from his perspective, he'd be wise to realise that much of the anger is at the societal behaviour as much as it is a very high profile role model and sports star perpetuating the attitude that being a princess isn't good enough for little boys.

bringing up kids with a non-gender stereotyped attitude doesn't break them or ruin them. your child will not be gay or trans just because you let them choose their own toys or their own outfits.

I know it was said in jest, but this seems like a double standard to be able to say this in a thread about gender stereotyping.

The second bolded part is something that both men and women need improvement in doing. I have a lot of things to say about that, but it doesn't belong in here.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bella

meh. it has nothing to do with sexual identity in any shape or form. it's more "why men are ******s: a discussion"

whilst we still use women as decoration and trophies, no matter their attire, how can we expect our drivers and for that matter, all staff, to have a solid balanced view of women in the same way they have of men.

let's be real. easily 50% of fellas in the western world would have reacted the same, but very few would be in the position to be called out for it like lewis is being. from his perspective, he'd be wise to realise that much of the anger is at the societal behaviour as much as it is a very high profile role model and sports star perpetuating the attitude that being a princess isn't good enough for little boys.

bringing up kids with a non-gender stereotyped attitude doesn't break them or ruin them. your child will not be gay or trans just because you let them choose their own toys or their own outfits.

Doesn't it have something to do with sexual identity? Lewis's comment about his nephew seems to be exactly about that.

As to whether bringing up kids with a non-gender stereotyped attitude does or doesn't break them or ruin them, I don't know if enough research has been done on it. Regarding my own son, he grew up naturally, without my setting any agenda and just letting him be a little boy. He's now your typical, heterosexual, 20 year old male at uni.

[bella]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I know it was said in jest, but this seems like a double standard to be able to say this in a thread about gender stereotyping.

The second bolded part is something that both men and women need improvement in doing. I have a lot of things to say about that, but it doesn't belong in here.

please feel free to swap “men” for “the patriarchy” if it bothers you. i’ll bite my tongue on #notallmen.

that’s why i leave a lot of things ungendered. other times, sorry, men are the source of the problem. in the same way that women are the source of other problems.

re: drivers being asked for their opinions. they have been recently. for example daniel ricciardo’s support of grid girls has cost him a lot of casual support amongst the female fandom. but largely you see that same group of young girls and women assuming the best of drivers and their moral standpoint until proven otherwise.

once again, anyone who knows me irl knows i’m not a feminist bra burning man hater. i’ve worked in male dominated environments my whole working life. i’m not a member or supporter of any pro-women in motorsport groups either. unfortunately as well as the great side of men i’ve seen the other side as well, and it's fascinating which taught male behaviours young women are completely in denial about.

[bella]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Doesn't it have something to do with sexual identity? Lewis's comment about his nephew seems to be exactly about that.

sexual identity and let's say fashion identity aren't the same thing. there's which gender you're attracted to, which gender you identify as (if any) and which genders clothes you like to wear. oddly, the former two are more accepted by society as variables than the latter. the fear that people wanting to dress as the other gender feel about going out in public as their alter ego, particularly men desperate to dress in women's clothes backs that up.

and that reflects itself in motorsport. there's an interesting underlying expectation that to be a woman in the sport (and retain your femininity) you have to sexualise yourself, be that posting what would be considered revealing selfies on your work social media accounts, doing photoshoots in ~sexy clothes or being promiscuous. is that linked to grid and promo girls? i can tell you that working on the grid in men's clothing next to grid girls with their bum cheeks hanging out of their skintight lycra is pretty de-feminising.

[newlaprecord]

Originally Posted by bella

it's part of a wider discussion tbf, gender shouldn't really be something we judge people on (like race), but that utopia is a long way away unless people of all genders sort toxic masculinity out. and motorsport is a prime example of that, case in point the princess dress shenanigans.

clearly we can all agree, that girls do a really shitty job at race driving, but usually excellent job at pr/modelling. so there is that.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by bella

utopia is a long way away unless people of all genders sort toxic masculinity out.

Sorted!




The future gender neutral grid "person" maybe??

[Mekola]

Want to see the opinion of Laurinha, the most important Argentine female marshal about this matter. Surely will be against grid girls.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bella

re: drivers being asked for their opinions. they have been recently. for example daniel ricciardo’s support of grid girls has cost him a lot of casual support amongst the female fandom.

Ricciardo's view seems to align with the accepted societal norms in Australia at the moment. I heard a podcast discussing the planned cricket T20 tournament for the UK in 2020. The Australian cricketer Glenn Maxwell was asked what they should include from the big bash and IPL - his suggestion was cheerleaders!

If the sporting world thinks that the way to entice people to view a new competition is through the use of attractive females - then it must be hard to convince them to remove such 'attractions' where they already exist?

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ricciardo's view seems to align with the accepted societal norms in Australia at the moment. I heard a podcast discussing the planned cricket T20 tournament for the UK in 2020. The Australian cricketer Glenn Maxwell was asked what they should include from the big bash and IPL - his suggestion was cheerleaders!

If the sporting world thinks that the way to entice people to view a new competition is through the use of attractive females - then it must be hard to convince them to remove such 'attractions' where they already exist?

Also, is it really surprising that one of the biggest beneficiaries of having girls trackside to make his efforts easier would want to keep that?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by bella

sexual identity and let's say fashion identity aren't the same thing. there's which gender you're attracted to, which gender you identify as (if any) and which genders clothes you like to wear. oddly, the former two are more accepted by society as variables than the latter. the fear that people wanting to dress as the other gender feel about going out in public as their alter ego, particularly men desperate to dress in women's clothes backs that up.

and that reflects itself in motorsport. there's an interesting underlying expectation that to be a woman in the sport (and retain your femininity) you have to sexualise yourself, be that posting what would be considered revealing selfies on your work social media accounts, doing photoshoots in ~sexy clothes or being promiscuous. is that linked to grid and promo girls? i can tell you that working on the grid in men's clothing next to grid girls with their bum cheeks hanging out of their skintight lycra is pretty de-feminising.

I think there's link between sexual identity and fashion identity. A very good friend of mine is a transvestite and has been involved in transvestism for over 20 years and he says fashion definitely plays a big part with regards to his alter ego.

I totally agree with you about defeminising and it all harks back to the days when draping a semi-naked woman over a car hood/bonnet, was deemed an perceptible way of marketing.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I totally agree with you about defeminising and it all harks back to the days when draping a semi-naked woman over a car hood/bonnet, was deemed an perceptible way of marketing.

That's not back in the day though - that's now. Booth babes are still a thing, especially at car events.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

That's not back in the day though - that's now. Booth babes are still a thing, especially at car events.

Back in the day there would be adverts with photos of girls, sprawled over cars in motoring magazines. I can't say I've seen anything like that for many years.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by AndrewCherry

As a man who in his own industry is trying to do as much as possible to reduce gender imbalance and discrimination, grid girls and the like make me sad. It's such a ridiculous thing to still have, and I don't think a lot of people realise quite how much so.

It is literally replacing furniture with women because they're prettier. It doesn't need a human to hold up a sign, I could design you a perfectly reasonable stand. The only reason it is a woman is because of how it looks, and at that point you've reduced a woman to an object for someone else's enjoyment. That's basically the definition of objectification.

Nobody here (as far as I know) is arguing that women shouldn't be allowed to wear whatever they want, as revealing as they like, etc. but this isn't that. This is women being dressed up and used as scenery, and the fact that some are paid well for it and presumably all do it voluntarily doesn't change the fact that what is happening is women as decoration.

Incidentally, the whole "promo girl" at trade shows etc. is going the same way. There have been boycotts and protests in my world over it, and rightly so - you demean women, you demean your intended audience, and you make the world a less welcoming place for majority of the people in it. Get rid.

There will always be "gender imbalance" because both genders are not the same and never have been and never will be. So no I will not be doing any phony virtue signaling "fighting for gender imbalance".

It's interesting you say you don't care what women wear or what job they have, but yet you do. I have known many, many "grid girls" or "promo girls" and all seem to enjoy their job and the attention it brings and I also have seen where it has allowed them to make connections in the industry and secure a regular job.

So I say if sponsors or series want grid girls and there are women who want those jobs(and clearly many do), leave them alone and stop trying to impose tyranny on others by shaming and phony virtue signaling.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

it's part of a wider discussion tbf, gender shouldn't really be something we judge people on (like race), but that utopia is a long way away unless people of all genders sort toxic masculinity out. and motorsport is a prime example of that, case in point the princess dress shenanigans.

Well if we have a toxic masculinity problem then it appears we have a toxic feminism problem as well. It's clear we have women determined to strip anything "masculine" from the world. This thing that the world isn't equal until women inhabit and dominate everything men do, not only rejects the qualities of women, but tries to turn women into men and all it seems to be doing is making women angry trying to be something they are not and never will be.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bella

whilst we still use women as decoration and trophies, no matter their attire, how can we expect our drivers and for that matter, all staff, to have a solid balanced view of women in the same way they have of men.

Are you offended that some women are attractive or attempt to make themselves so?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

OK this has gone on long enough ...not only is is going around in circles insults whether intended or otherwise are on the horizon.

Closed.