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6 Sep 2015, 15:00 (Ref:3571876) | #126 | |
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It's great to see that now the engine is better than Renault and not far behind Ferrari that the McLarens are chasing Mercedes for the podium on power circuits such as Monza and aren't even remotely fighting the Manors. Well done Honda!
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6 Sep 2015, 15:36 (Ref:3571885) | #127 | ||
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So..Santander and Johnnie Walker are apparently leaving the sport at the end of the year(Daily Mail) taking a whack out of Mclaren's finances whilst a prideful Honda insists on screwing around with this Arai clown. Yeah, Mclaren are seriously becoming unstuck here.
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6 Sep 2015, 17:30 (Ref:3571904) | #128 | ||
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If those two put out all sponsorshp in F1 it will leave a big whole in several other teams finances
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10 Sep 2015, 18:23 (Ref:3572972) | #129 | |
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I typically don't go to the BBC for my F1 news, but I found this article quite a good summary plus some good details...
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34208407 Richard |
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10 Sep 2015, 19:35 (Ref:3572981) | #130 | ||
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Thanks for the link
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10 Sep 2015, 19:49 (Ref:3572982) | #131 | |||
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10 Sep 2015, 20:29 (Ref:3572993) | #132 | ||
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That is a great article, thank you for the link Richard!
At least Honda know what the problems are, I am convinced that they will solve them as they are great engine builders and always look at the long term .. |
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11 Sep 2015, 08:48 (Ref:3573128) | #133 | ||
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Yes, a very interesting & reassuring article. Obviously there are problems with the power unit & the chassis, but that explains to me what those problems are, and it looks like the Team (McLaren-Honda) are aware of their problems, and are working towards a solution.
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11 Sep 2015, 09:59 (Ref:3573135) | #134 | |
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I wonder why they didn't just say something along those lines from the outset. I hate the mushroom approach to things.
Surely just saying early in the piece that their ERS isn't working efficiently would save face to a certain degree. They could then focus on delivering performance and improvements where they can. The alternative to this, and apparently the option they choose to go with, is just pretend there isn't a problem, say you're on top of it and that improvements are near. It haas been embarrassing and I'm sure they have done both the McLaren and Honda names irreversible damage in some peoples eyes. I have been a huge fan of both for as long as I can remember and even then I feel they have betrayed me this year. Haha (need to add a laugh in there to show that isn't entirely serious) |
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11 Sep 2015, 10:07 (Ref:3573136) | #135 | ||
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I think that Honda and Renault should have a chat and tell the FIA, FOM and FOCA they either get to change their engines to be competitive or they will both walk! |
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11 Sep 2015, 18:57 (Ref:3573235) | #136 | |||
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14 Sep 2015, 10:47 (Ref:3573772) | #137 | |||
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Like the article suggests, it appears that what Mclaren have pushed Honda to do is the basis of Hondas problem......placing both the compressor and exhaust turbine inside the engines V will reduce down OD of the volute scroll for both compressor and turbine to a stupidly small diameter and generally kill the efficiency of both - severley.......a good radial flow compressor is in the region of 80% efficient, if for packaging reasons you need to drastically reduce the OD, the compressor efficiency easily falls to circa 50%, which is the engineering equivalent of falling off a cliff, we all know in F1 just 1% can be the difference between the front and back of the grid. I heard the rumor that Honda are using an axial flow compressor, if so it will be good for flow, but hardly any pressure building potential, no wonder they are on the back foot with a massive power deficit. Also no wonder Mclaren are being so quiet, it looks like the "extreme" approach as bitten them both on the backside, and the joke being they still entered a year later and made a hash of it. If you look at what Mercedes have done with the compressor and turbines at the very end of the engine, the volute scrolls are visually very big, they will have hardly any design compromises in this critical region hence a highly efficient boosting system and very powerful engine. |
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14 Sep 2015, 11:56 (Ref:3573785) | #138 | ||
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My days of understanding automotive engineering have long, long gone, although I can sometimes understand the fundamentals that underpin it. So, these are uneducated mumblings based on what I could garner fro the reams that have been written in the last couple of years.
It would seem that Mercedes took a unique decision about how they would design their whole power-unit, and, I would guess, that at the time they were crossing everything that the concept would not only work but that it would be better than Renault's and Ferrari's. And boy, was it. However, and apologies to Richard Casto, this is where everything goes pear-shaped. Because of the restrictive rules and regulations on everything from on track testing to possible re-designs of PSUs, Renault and, to a lesser extent, were stuck with what they started with. In Renault's case (read RBR), and it would seem as though McLaren may have fallen in to the same trap, they decided to try to package everything so tightly that they couldn't have even followed Mercedes' path anyway. Now we have the stupid position that both Renault and now Honda are stymied, being only allowed to make fairly minor design changes from their original PSUs. I think that it was Renault that said, during the early testing last year, that they much admired the way that Mercedes had designed their power-unit, but that they wouldn't be permitted to entirely copy the concept because of the restrictive rules and regs. The problem that faces all the PSU providers is the extremely long lead time that they need to design the new units. If the same sort of prescriptive R & Rs had existed in the 60s, I doubt whether the world would have had the joy of seeing the DVF stuck in the back of the Lotus. I know that money comes into the equation, or at least trying to save it. However, I wonder how much is wasted trying to wring more power out of the units to try to keep up with the Mercs, which may well have been better used to redesign the units. This is why I loved engineering cars that ran in the highly modified classes in the 60s; as long as everything fitted within certain dimensions, then away you go. There are better ways of controlling costs than being restrictive. |
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14 Sep 2015, 12:27 (Ref:3573791) | #139 | ||
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This is all very interesting and based on the last two posts it would appear that McLaren Honda & Red Bull Renault (as it would appear to be a combined Chassis/PSU problem) have both fallen for the same mistake and insisted on a packaging solution that has severely compromised the overall result. Although I'm not aware exactly how the Ferrari turbo is, I'll assume that they have a set-up similar even though it may not be exactly the same as Mercedes.
This shows to me that it is far better for the chassis & PSU designers/engineers to work together instead of one telling the other how to do their job! The problem now is although we appear to know what is wrong, how can this be resolved? As Mike says, although the semi-frozen design was done in a bit to negate costs, trying to develop their way out of this without a fundamental design change will also cost serious amounts of money and may still not achieve the required results. Although this may not be looked upon as fair to those PSU manufacturers who did get it right from the outset, would a workable solution be for Renault & Honda to 'buy' some special development tokens which would allow such a fundamental chance to the design? |
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14 Sep 2015, 15:28 (Ref:3573825) | #140 | ||
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my reading that article left with the impression that Honda's and Mclaren's issue stem from the two either working towards cross purposes or not communicating well enough together during the development process.
given the fall out between RBR and Renault i suspect they had similar issues as well. is that something money can fix? |
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14 Sep 2015, 15:43 (Ref:3573827) | #141 | ||
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[QUOTE=chillibowl;3573825]my reading that article left with the impression that Honda's and Mclaren's issue stem from the two either working towards cross purposes or not communicating well enough together during the development process.
given the fall out between RBR and Renault i suspect they had similar issues as well. is that something money can fix?[/QUOTE] I'm sure that if the PSU performs well enough to let the chassis win races/the championship (fr RBR or McLaren) then the teams will love the PSU supplier again (no-matter what it costs!). |
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14 Sep 2015, 17:46 (Ref:3573849) | #142 | |||
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Quote:
Quote:
Think back to the start of 2014 and all of the issues RBR had. If I am remembering correctly, they had serious issues with cooling (RBR was cutting holes in the body left and right to get things to work). So I can imagine RBR making demands upon Renault that Renault may not have been able to deliver upon. I seem to remember that it is not just tight packaging around the engine, but smaller side-pods to reduce drag, but at the expense of cooling capability (which the engine may not be happy with). So maybe Renault made enough compromises to satisfy RBR demands (design goals) that the overall power unit was/is ultimately a lesser solution. Maybe the same thing happened at McLaren? As the article says, they put large demands on Honda to achieve specific aero goals. That leaves Ferrari. Given the massive reorganization there, it is hard to know exactly why they are doing good now. A great reorganization?, luck? a bit of both? Did they also have internal battles on balance between aero and power demands? Maybe for the 2015 car they worked together like a team in a way that Mercedes seems to be? To the point about tokens. I haven't looked at the schedule for how tokens can be deployed in awhile. But if I remember correctly, parts of the design become frozen over time and fewer and fewer tokens are available. So the longer it takes you the get your power unit working right, the less likely you will ever get it working the way you want due to freezes and lack of tokens. But we are only in the second season of using this, so I would think they they still have time to fix it, but it may be another season of problems for Honda and Renault beyond just 2014 and 2015. Richard |
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27 Sep 2015, 22:00 (Ref:3577605) | #143 | ||
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Where To Now For McLaren-Honda
That was a very interesting interview with Ron Dennis on the Beeb. Notably lacking Ronspeak, he nicely explained the difficulties for an engine manufacturer if you don't get it right first time. He didn't mention that he has any solution though.
I think we can now clearly see that the second Alonso-McLaren divorce is imminent. That may be why Ron is keen to keep JB. Whether JB will be so keen is another matter, but he's an affable guy and due a not insubstantial payrise, so I think Jenson will stay. I don't see what Alonso will do though, if he leaves McLaren. There aren't any worthwhile F1 seats open for 2016, and I can't see him following the Webber-route into sportscars. Perhaps he'll just have turn professional as a teddy-thrower. |
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27 Sep 2015, 22:08 (Ref:3577609) | #144 | |
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Ron and Alonso have both said they will see out the contract (another two years).
Ron confirmed Buttons contract is there if he wants it (for another year). The only piece of the puzzle we haven't heard is from Jenson saying he will stay. Last edited by Born Racer; 8 Oct 2015 at 10:27. |
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28 Sep 2015, 09:51 (Ref:3577720) | #145 | |
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Has anyone heard if there is any lobbying from McLaren Honda to change the PU development rules? Given their current problems with the "GP2 engine" I would have thought there would at least have been some overtures!
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28 Sep 2015, 22:26 (Ref:3577839) | #146 | ||
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Historically, McLaren have never been too sympathetic to the woes of struggling teams, so they're unlikely to get much support. Even if Ron can swallowenough pride to even attempt to plead the case.
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28 Sep 2015, 23:29 (Ref:3577842) | #147 | ||
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They will soldier on. McLaren have been in F1 for long enough to know that things can go wrong. I remember when McLaren entered the MP4/1E, with the TAG-Porsche turbo engine in 1983. It was a bit of a disaster. However, they turned it around and Lauda won in 1984.
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29 Sep 2015, 01:29 (Ref:3577878) | #148 | ||
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If the deal for the Enstone team and Renaul falls apart and Renault leaves the sport totally AND Honda is still lost in the woods, then I can imagine there being pressure on F1 in general to help prop up Honda to both prevent them from pulling the plug as well as ensure some diversity within F1 from the point of engine supply beyond just Mercedes and Ferrari. Richard |
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29 Sep 2015, 01:44 (Ref:3577883) | #149 | |
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It is really difficult to believe that this disparity has gone on so long.
I guess the enough other runners of the Merc engines are benefitting at the expense of RBR and Renault's problems to keep them onside despite the fact that they are not in realistically in contention to win very often. So it would appear that the F1 consensus is that the current state is quite acceptable, bad luck Renault and Honda. P.S. I wonder if the increased cost of the Merc engines is paid for by the improved results? |
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29 Sep 2015, 02:21 (Ref:3577893) | #150 | ||
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That is why part of me is sadly hoping for disaster. Richard |
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