[WEC] WEC 2019/20 season

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

4 manufacturers if Brabham stays true to his/their word.

What could go wrong...

[kvenom]

Lotterer to miss Sebring.......for an FE simulator test.

Is this a joke or something?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Lotterer to miss Sebring.......for an FE simulator test.

Is this a joke or something?

it's just techeetah paying lotterer more than rebellion (and I'm not sure lotterer is salaried for his lmp1 duties)

[broadrun96]

If his primary contract is to Techeetah then he is going there first every time. And it sounds like that is his paying gig so yeah, he's doing sim work

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Chiana

It was AF Corse + Aston + Proton-then-Manthey only for years and years so it'd just go status quo again. Unless AMR goes GTP but I don't think they still have the money even for tech frozen category.

Still would be too bad, I have enjoyed seeing BMW, Ford, and Porsche run these dual WEC/IMSA programs over the past couple seasons. To an lesser extent Corvette and even Ferrari since the Risi line ups at Daytona are pretty much made up of the AF Corse WEC driving squad.

Tells you a lot though if BMW and Ford leave WEC GTE but continue to run in IMSA GTLM beyond this year. They see value in that market and the future of the IMSA series, and maybe they trust the "BoP" better there. I think IMSA GTLM is going to be around through 2021 at least before a GTD-pro concept takes over. Even then there will be grandfathering I'm sure.

WEC has the hypercars coming which is awesome but since it is a proto/GT hyprid concept, it puts the future of GTE in question big time. A great time for GT3 to step in...at last.

[TF110]

I don't want another GT3 category. It's bad enough the bop is all over the place in GTE. You bring GT3 in there and it goes from bad to worse. The cars are never evenly matched for more than a race and it's always one or the other happening; great racing for a couple different makes or a run away victor. I think GTE will stay as is for a couple more years at least. They have enough interest from who they already cater to anyway. I feel like manufacturers who spent the money to make their GTE car will be a little p-o'ed by 'cheap' GT3's coming in to play in their category.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't want another GT3 category. It's bad enough the bop is all over the place in GTE. You bring GT3 in there and it goes from bad to worse. The cars are never evenly matched for more than a race and it's always one or the other happening; great racing for a couple different makes or a run away victor. I think GTE will stay as is for a couple more years at least. They have enough interest from who they already cater to anyway. I feel like manufacturers who spent the money to make their GTE car will be a little p-o'ed by 'cheap' GT3's coming in to play in their category.

But GTE of today is just as bopped as GT3 is, there is no difference anymore. Worse yet it pretends to retain a rulebook based on actual regulations, while GT3 doesn't even try to camouflage the obvious

I hate them both but they might just as well have GT3 now as traffic obstacles for the prototypes, it makes no difference. Other than GT3 has more stuff in it

[Akrapovic]

I used to argue there is a set difference between GTE and GT3, but now there really isn't. At least GT3 is honest about it. At least then you get variety, more customer cars, etc. Hell, maybe Le Mans would be better for GT3 if we didn't allow Ford and Porsche to monopolise half the grid, and therefore teams like JMW wouldn't get dropped.

[TF110]

I think there's more leeway in gt3 than gte in what you do for the car. For instance the AMG GT3 does not have the same engine as the road car. It's running the SLS AMG's engine which isn't even produced anymore. If they go the GT3 route, you might as well cancel the current rules and say bring a car that looks like a road car and has an engine that is produced by you or bought. They could make a nice easy to follow rulebook but it seems like the teams want the complications currently going on.

[Akrapovic]

I kinda agree, but in GTE they've rotated the entire Porsche drive-train around, Ford race a car you can't buy without being sued, and the Ferrari and Aston are literally the GT3 car with some parts swapped out, and electronic code commented out. They certainly used to be different, and whilst they are not identical yet, they certainly are on a trajectory that will meet at some point.

Look at how Aston was helped with BoP with the new car. That was a very GT3 way of doing it. Some may like it, some may not (I'm not as bothered as many, but I understand why they would be), but it does appear we're converging.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

They certainly used to be different, and whilst they are not identical yet, they certainly are on a trajectory that will meet at some point.

Worth bearing in mind that the cars which have both GTE and GT3 variants are externally identical and only geeks know they're not the same. I tried to explain the difference to a friend and just ended up going with "the GTEs are driven by factory-employed pros while the GT3s are run by rich amateurs".

Looked at from a non-geek point of view, the expense of GTLM/GTE does seem hard to justify when they could just run essentially identical factory-prepared and driven GT3 cars.

[carbsmith]

The costs in GTE are pretty much in the realm of factory teams protecting their budgets. The 488 GT3 and GTE are really close to something you could see both racing in the same class as the budget priced base model and blank chequebook upgrade versions before locked homologations.

Multiple GTE cars are running out of production engines too, although they're still the same configuration as the current engine.

[TF110]

Should just have it as 1200kg and a set fuel flow combined with body dimensions max/minimum production car produced with a production based engine from the company or the road car for small producers who use GM engines for example. The bop should be success ballast if absolutely necessary. Of course that's too much to ask it seems.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I kinda agree, but in GTE they've rotated the entire Porsche drive-train around, Ford race a car you can't buy without being sued, and the Ferrari and Aston are literally the GT3 car with some parts swapped out, and electronic code commented out. They certainly used to be different, and whilst they are not identical yet, they certainly are on a trajectory that will meet at some point.

These are 100% my feeling in a nutshell.

If the ACO loses Ford & BMW they will be down to 4 OEM's (5 if you count the Nissan in the ByKolles P1, 6 if you count the Corvette entries at a handful of rounds) represented across the WEC, ELMS, and AsLMS. That is a really hard fact to believe. GT3 would definitely add some much needed diversity to a very BoP'ed GT grid at Le Mans.

[Akrapovic]

The other difference with GT3 is they can have driver aids, whilst GTE cannot.

Here's a question, related to what Dyson Mazda just said. GT3 would certainly improve the number of manufacturer numbers in WEC (and any series that has a GT3 based class). So do you allow factory teams to run them properly? We know that kinda happens in GT3, but they do try and avoid full factory teams. But do the ACO just swap GTE to GT3, allow factory teams and call it a day?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

But do the ACO just swap GTE to GT3, allow factory teams and call it a day?

That's what I'd do.

[canaglia]

Nothing wrong with gt3 in WEC and LM, but the risk is to see an invasion!
with gt3 cars over 50% of the whole grid as happened this year at daytona.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Nothing wrong with gt3 in WEC and LM, but the risk is to see an invasion!
with gt3 cars over 50% of the whole grid as happened this year at daytona.

The ACO already enforces roughly 50-50 artificial split between P1/P2 and GTE, and has for over 5 years now regardless of who is entering what, so nothing would change

Daytona/etc are different as they doesn't have formal entry granting process, and also they have depleted (prototype) grids without surplus, so naturally anyone with GT3 car requesting an entry gets in

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Nothing wrong with gt3 in WEC and LM, but the risk is to see an invasion!
with gt3 cars over 50% of the whole grid as happened this year at daytona.

That is not a bad thing at all. GT cars rock. They are the heart and soul of sportscar racing.

Meanwhile prototypes in WEC is not that interesting in the super season so far. Both P1 and P2 was much more fun to watch in 2017. Really miss the Porsche 919. Rebellion made the P2 class better as well.

[canaglia]

yeah, but with gt3 around, bet most of lmp2 teams will switch to gt3 and many BES/gtopen/ADAC team etc... could drop their program and aim for a LM ride.
You're understimating the consequent domino effect. That I meant for invasion.

Anyway, to me, the current GTE/GTLM ruleset is pointless. GTE have better performances than gt3 just because of bop and confidential tires.... cut about 80kg from a IMSA >1300kg R8 lms and give it michelins and likely performance level will be in the same GTE league. Difference is that a GTE costs about double than a gt3.

In my ideal world, GTPRO there should be enhanced gt3+ spec with full pro lineup
example a 488 GT3 -> 1200-1240kg / 550hp / enhanced spliter-diffuser / confidential tires

while GTAM, standard gt3 with pro-am lineup and one tires supplier.

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Nothing wrong with gt3 in WEC and LM, but the risk is to see an invasion!
with gt3 cars over 50% of the whole grid as happened this year at daytona.

An invasion of manufacturers that want to race in your series =\= a risk. I would love to see a single 30 car GT3 class at Le Mans. It would be epic.

[Akrapovic]

A manufacturer invasion is a huge risk because when that happens you have to drop private teams to make way for the big players. When you do that, the little teams have to go elsewhere. And when the big players leave (like they do in every motorsport series in the history of forever), you don't have anyone to replace them. You want manufacturers, but you don't want too many, because then you have no contingency plan.

I only want GT3 cars if it means a healthy grid of private entries.

[Aysedasi]

30 GT3s? Not my cuppa at all, I have to say.....

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

30 GT3s? Not my cuppa at all, I have to say...

But 30 GTEs is?

If so, what's the difference between (say):

30 GTEs split 50/50 between factory and private entries
vs
30 GT3s split 50/50 between factory and private entries?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

30 GT3s? Not my cuppa at all, I have to say.....

Agree. If ACO/LM opens to gt3, an invasion is the only predictable scenario.
After all, we're just talking about the most widespread racing car spec since the motorsport creation...

just to give some numbers....
how many corvette c6r gt1 have ever been built? 8 or 10*
how many ferrari 458 gt2 have ever been built? 36*
how many audi R8 have ever been built? >100
*(http://www.racingsportscars.com data)