Historic Racing Today

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by johngee

A transit? that's luxury. I had an ex GPO van when I did FF1600 and it was a better place, with everybody helping each other.

I had an Anglia van and a two wheeled trailer, we used to put all the tools and fuel in the back and in the race car and drive all over the place in the UK and abroad.
I was often banned from driving back in those days and my mechanic would have to drive me and his then girlfriend Sue to the meetings, as there was only enough room for two seats in the front she would sit on my lap.
I am still with her 44 years later

[Mike Harte]

I found the cheapest trailer I could get, a solid wooden topped affair with the top about two and a half feet off the ground - to get the car on, you had to have someone hold the front of it up so that it was at an angle that the car could drive up on to it. We got quite good at it after a while, and my top mechanic knew exactly when he could let go of the trailer when it was in perfect balance.

We had the luxury of a fairly decent 2nd hand Ford Zodiac for our tow vehicle, and having a bench seat in the front, we could easily travel 6 up in comfort when the need arose. At that time, there were more and more trucks and converted coaches/buses in the paddocks, but on the whole they were all pretty well beaten up, their best days long gone and, apart from the convenience of being able to work on the cars in the dry if it was raining, there was nothing much to be jealous of.

Reading Max's comments and John's confirmation, it would seem as though the world has changed somewhat since my day.

[grantp]

Mike,

One of the problems with aspiring to live in a modern semidetached town house (seems to be the only thing gets through the building regs and planning consent these days) is that they have nowhere to store a race car, let alone work on one.

If they have a "garage" it might be big enough for all the waste and recycling bins, a couple of bicycles and possibly a sporting motorbike if people are really keen.

Heck, some of them don't even seem to have space to park the family car!

Even buying an older house may not help - many that had garages no longer have garages having had them converted into additional living space.

More generally ....

The very last thing any political authorities want to do is encourage motor sport. The only way I could see that attitude changing would be as a means to "encourage" people to adopt electric powered vehicles.

I could actually envisage them banning anything else if they don't get to that point for "health and safety" reasons first.

Once we get to that point discussions about the viability of historic racing, with its nominal 50 year ish reference point would become moot.

It's just possible the the timing of affordable electric powered vehicles for racing adaptation will dovetail with end of the historic period from which fairly authentic cars might just be viable in terms of recreation in an engineering sense. (I am assuming that we have not passed that point already.) Give it ten years and we might see some sort of controlled chassis/power system that can be used as the basis of a silhouette formula. That might appeal to those of a certain age who currently feel unable or are unwilling (having too many other distractions) to commit time and effort to get involved today (with motor racing in general).

Of course by the time this might happen I, for one, will very likely to be too old to care much or maybe even long gone.

[midgetman]

You're right about modern houses being unsuitable for motor sport. This has been a common theme: "I'd love to start racing but have nowhere to keep it." Just another barrier.

Then the sport promotes "cost effective " entry level karting as being £35k. Step forward Formula Kart Stars, promoted by Bernie Ecclestone.

The relevance here is that if the public face of motor sport starts at 35k then most people will believe racing is only for the rich and go back to their computer games. With a dwindling pool of drivers that will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

it would seem as though the world has changed somewhat since my day.

Yes it has- full stop! In my day, obesity wasn't a serious issue, folk didn't sit around at home watching massive plasma TVs and / or staring at computer / device screens, drive everywhere in 4x4s rather than walk / cycle, order take aways on line, etc etc....

The world has changed in race paddocks as well. Not suggesting for the better, but it has.....

[andy97]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Then the sport promotes "cost effective " entry level karting as being £35k. Step forward Formula Kart Stars, promoted by Bernie Ecclestone.

The relevance here is that if the public face of motor sport starts at 35k then most people will believe racing is only for the rich and go back to their computer games. With a dwindling pool of drivers that will become a self fulfilling prophecy.

This is the crux of it.

I even chatted to someone on Sunday who s trying to get a one make entry level single seater series off the ground with cars costing only £28k. Great, just what we need. An entry level single seater series is Monoposto with cars starting at £4k?

The industry/ sport is not doing enough to help itself. It needs to be clear that you can race a £2k car and enjoy yourself relatively affodably in Track day trophy, CSCC, 750 etc.

Go Motorsport is not the answer, most of the only people that know about it are in the sport already. Shows at Silverstone are not the answer, we need car clubs and displays in the car park at Sainsburys, in Schools and Colleges, outside football grounds, in town centres etc

I am convinced that the Play station generation who race virtual cars are interested in racing but just don't know how and think it's too expensive so they don't even look. We need to show them that you can race a Fiesta, Clio, an MX5 or MR2 with a bolt in cage, on list 1a tyres and enjoy racing at pretty low cost.

[simon drabble]

seems you can get out on track for a reasonable amount - http://racecarsdirect.com/listing/58...y_to_race.html
dont know anything about car or driver but looking at his website he seems to have peddled it constantly at the front..
personally speaking it doesnt do it for me but it seems the thread has evolved into "how cheaply can I race.." and the answer is you can be out there with you own car and kit etc... and first race entry paid for under £10k. Whats not to like!

[Derwent Motorsp]

This is an interesting thread. As secretary of a club that has bucked the downward trend and has been Motor Club of the year twice, I can say we do a lot of promotion and selling the sport and have tried lots of options. Funnily enough static displays in city centres don't seme to pull many folk. Last year we did a Go Motorsport display at the start of the Pirelli Rally in Carlisle. Lots of "razz" start ramp, PA, flashy rally cars plus our display of club cars. Remarkably few folk paid much attending to any of it. Go back 30 years and an overnight halt of the RAC Rally in Carlisle and there would be huge crowds there on a cold November evening.
I reckon "demonstration" events are the way to go but sadly the MSA does not like them and those that are run are authorised by other bodies.

[Mike Harte]

Grant and Max, the lack of a garage at home shouldn't be an insurmountable barrier to going racing. I never had one to use at home (that was for my mum's car), so I found a lock-up about half a mile away from where I worked, and the same distance to my mechanics workshop. That is where I initially stripped the car down to a shell, and built it back up until is was back on wheels. When it came time to install the engine and gearbox, we pushed the car along the road to the workshop, and seeing as how 50 years have elapsed, I can now say that, yes, I did used to drive it on the road between the lock-up and the workshop for about a year. It so happens that the lock-up was at the back of a police section house - for those of tender years, back then the Met, and probably other forces, used to provide highly subsidised accommodation for single police officers, and they were called section houses - and the local bobbies took a friendly interest in what I was doing and never once bothered me except to ask technical questions. Considering that the car was completely unsilenced, there is no way in the world that they were unaware that I was taking it up and down the road!

There are still plenty of lock-ups around the UK (half the petty villains in the country seem to have access to one to store their stashes) so if that is your only problem, then get on to your local council because many of them still own some, or look in the classifieds in the local newspapers.

It all comes back to how burning is your desire to get on to the track to pit yourself against others. If it's strong enough, nothing will stop you. I wrote on this or another thread that I built my own car by myself pretty well, and assisted in three others. My passion for the sport was enough that I got onto the track, and thoroughly enjoyed my time on it. However, as far as I am aware, none of the other 3 ever went near a race track because they, in the final analysis, didn't have that passion that I did.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

seems you can get out on track for a reasonable amount - http://racecarsdirect.com/listing/58...y_to_race.html
dont know anything about car or driver but looking at his website he seems to have peddled it constantly at the front..
personally speaking it doesnt do it for me but it seems the thread has evolved into "how cheaply can I race.." and the answer is you can be out there with you own car and kit etc... and first race entry paid for under £10k. Whats not to like!

I still reckon you can get on track cheaper than that. I bought a really good Fiat Uno for £2k and raced it for 2 years, you can get Fiestas and the like for about£3k, I bought my current Porsche 924S for £2500 ( but had to spend a bit more on it to get it through Scrutineering) and a F Vauxhall Junior single seater can be bought for about £4500 (probably the quickest car per £ you can buy.

[midgetman]

If you're talking cheap of course, my 6 Hours 924 cost £160...and I kitted it out on the profits from selling bits and my current racing stock so you don't need to tell me

Of course no garage is no barrier, I don't have one and have built cars in the garden. In our area certainly lock ups are at a premium, maybe you've been watching too much "Minder" But it's just one more cost, one more barrier, one more hurdle to fall at quite early on. These things add up.

[simes43]

The average competitor is looking for value for money and via man maths, a simple way to justify their expenditure.

Karting should be a low cost route into the sport, not the current diminishing cash cow that supports vested interests. It should be the stepping stone, not a barrier.

Even at club level, you have to run under an "awning" to receive the support needed and the access to the right engines.

I was involved in the formative years of Saxmax as a driver coach because I liked the idea of dads and lads racing out of the boot of a road ca, so I gave up my time to support it. But then came the vans, then the motorhomes and then the trucks until the barrier to compete stifled fresh entries because some people were attempting to make a living from the series and raising costs accordingly. The only ones who made it, had money.

Sorry to raise the Compacts again, but the series coordinator limts the number of cars "teams" can run so that their is a mixture of entrants. Not perfect, but close.

In regards to Historics, the trick is to mix the lowering costs with a bit of kudos to keep the drivers happy. I think you need both.

[zefarelly]

people seem suprised when you suggest classic cars are worth what they are . . . . but its comporable to the money they waste on new cars to drive to the supermarket in.

we bought our house precisely because it had a large garage and rear access.

we have a respectable frontage . . .no one need know our dark secret!

[andy97]

Of course, one of the problems with this thread, and the related ones about "too much historic racing?" Etc etc is that it's the same 6-12 people commenting, no one is a senior rep from one of the big clubs (sorry Claire), and no one from the MSA is taking any notice that we know about it.

It's interesting in its own way, but we are wasting the keyboard equivalent of hot air and nothing will change. Sadly.

[Neil Duke]

Originally Posted by andy97

I didn't answer your query,Mike, sorry.

My point is that it's not that long ago that a parent could run his child in something significant like National Formula Ford out of a transit van and a trailer. You would soon see if they had any talent and could move up. Now you have to have a "team", and a truck, and hospitality, and special flooring, and bullish!t boards etc etc. there is no need for most of that until you get up to and beyond F3, British GT or BTCC. It all adds cosy, but necessarily value, and it all robes a barrier to entry for those on a budget. Could your turn up in F Ford now with a transit? No. Sadly.
Therefore, ban lorries from the paddock and ban teams for most series - costs would come down and everything is much simpler.
Ok, a simplistic view but something needs to be done to bring costs down and make the whole thing more accessible.

That would stop me racing,I have neither the time,nor the space to run/store/work on my cars.

[Heightswitch]

Am i the only one here that just loves cars and wants to compete in the car I have always loved the most and decided to build for myself??

N.

[zefarelly]

No.

I run the car I like and do it all myself. I'd had my full of rip off bullshit before I started racing!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

Of course, one of the problems with this thread, and the related ones about "too much historic racing?" Etc etc is that it's the same 6-12 people commenting, no one is a senior rep from one of the big clubs (sorry Claire), and no one from the MSA is taking any notice that we know about it.

It's interesting in its own way, but we are wasting the keyboard equivalent of hot air and nothing will change. Sadly.

You do not need to apologise, it is a true statement...and the reason why you are dead right, nothing will change

Dont think for a moment though that its not being watched what is being said....it is...by those very Big Clubs and indeed those who are in MSH ....but...its the age old thing isn't it...."Keep quite and say now't"

I have said this so many times but you see...YOU the competitor have the power to change the status quo...but no one believes it but it is true...but we are (as I have also said before) a pie 'n' pint nation ..Im alright jack so I will carry on!...I have my entry for this years so and so ...that does me...and while that prevails you won't change anything.

What will eventually happen is that someone (I have an idea who) will eventually get enough clout to legally challenge the so called "monopoly" and they will create another body that will go head to head against the MSA, it will appear cheaper at first...better...will be "the saviour"...but...just like Animal farm I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before there would be the same problems facing the same people...and , if this forum is hopefully still around then, it will probably be the same 12 tapping a keyboard ....for the benefit of hearing each others view...rather than it actually making a difference

[johngee]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

What will eventually happen is that someone (I have an idea who) will eventually get enough clout to legally challenge the so called "monopoly" and they will create another body that will go head to head against the MSA, it will appear cheaper at first...better...will be "the saviour"...but...just like Animal farm I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before there would be the same problems facing the same people...and , if this forum is hopefully still around then, it will probably be the same 12 tapping a keyboard ....for the benefit of hearing each others view...rather than it actually making a difference

HOW TRUE .... OH HOW TRUE!

However, when I first got involved in racing, nearly everything was organised by the 'big' clubs (BRSCC, BARC and BRDC). Now there's far more choice of organisers but only a finite choice of venues. In conjunction with Claire's post, draw your own conclusions.

[john ruston]

The post about number of people contributing

It's not the people that contribute on here ,it's the ones that read it.

Amazing the number of people who accost you around the place when something has been written on here and wound them up.

Ron ,King of Masters ,cross examined me one day .A really good bloke who had the balls to start Masters but had some unusual characters working for him early on.
It was his money ,his choice but I had a habit of tripping over them at inopportune times and he as you would expect protected them and in turn his business.

Most of the organisers know what happens on here and you now have Patrick Peter's Gang with their own contributor.The Peter Organisation are the most influential in World Historics so if you want to get a Le Mans Classic entry grovel or conversely if you **** them off expect a dear John.

Goodwood provided great topics with the pros and cons.

The Revival is the most important trade date on the British Racing calendar but even that needs to change its entry list annually rather than same people every year ,Suppose that's the easiest way to put an entry together.I digress Brian!They read it!

They read this stuff and with the new set of individules at the helm Goodwood may ring the changes.Signs seem good although if you herd sheep there would get 100,000 punters!

Some of the stalwarts like Simon Hadfield,Roger Wills,Patch seem to have retired from giving there opinions and they are missed and needed.

Am aware they get their chain pulled occasionally but sure they can handle that!

Usually my fault but being old and ugly can handle rejection

It's a good place and ninety eight percent of contributors are reasonable normal guys who like talking about their exploits and can entertain themselves explaining the most trivial of subjects ( in my opinion but I probably don't understand the significance anyway)and then their are us grumpy awkward buggers like me!

Not a bad thread ,never know may make 200 entries now Claire is launched!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by john ruston

The post about number of people contributing

It's not the people that contribute on here ,it's the ones that read it.

Amazing the number of people who accost you around the place when something has been written on here and wound them up.

Ron ,King of Masters ,cross examined me one day .A really good bloke who had the balls to start Masters but had some unusual characters working for him early on.
It was his money ,his choice but I had a habit of tripping over them at inopportune times and he as you would expect protected them and in turn his business.

Most of the organisers know what happens on here and you now have Patrick Peter's Gang with their own contributor.The Peter Organisation are the most influential in World Historics so if you want to get a Le Mans Classic entry grovel or conversely if you **** them off expect a dear John.

Goodwood provided great topics with the pros and cons.

The Revival is the most important trade date on the British Racing calendar but even that needs to change its entry list annually rather than same people every year ,Suppose that's the easiest way to put an entry together.I digress Brian!They read it!

They read this stuff and with the new set of individules at the helm Goodwood may ring the changes.Signs seem good although if you herd sheep there would get 100,000 punters!

Some of the stalwarts like Simon Hadfield,Roger Wills,Patch seem to have retired from giving there opinions and they are missed and needed.

Am aware they get their chain pulled occasionally but sure they can handle that!

Usually my fault but being old and ugly can handle rejection

It's a good place and ninety eight percent of contributors are reasonable normal guys who like talking about their exploits and can entertain themselves explaining the most trivial of subjects ( in my opinion but I probably don't understand the significance anyway)and then their are us grumpy awkward buggers like me!

Not a bad thread ,never know may make 200 entries now Claire is launched!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Not a bad thread ,never know may make 200 entries now Claire is launched!

Like a disabled Exorcet missile .... who knows where it will land!

[356sc]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Amazing the number of people who accost you around the place when something has been written on here and wound them up

John....I can't believe you have ever posted something that has wound people up?!!!!

[john ruston]

Your dad still talks to me!

[356sc]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Your dad still talks to me!

Only because he doesn't post on here!!!!!!!!!