[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Perhaps because it breaks every design rule in the book? Yes, car designers have a set of basic rules following which, one can make a handsome car. GT-One follows practically all of them, that's why people who've never even seen a race car find it attractive. Did at the time and still do. Those prototypes were at worst handsome beasts. Things went wrong towards the mid-2000s due to regs and new aero trends.

You can't unlearn what you've learned though years of experience. Maybe if Mercedes-Benz didn't mess up with the long overhang/short wheelbase CLR at LM in '99, we might not have the current rules.

Actually, even if the Audi R10 used the same engine as the R8, all other things being equal, it'd have a 110 inch wheelbase vs the R8's 107.5 due to the chassis being that much longer. And with the overhang restrictions, it'd probably end up with a wheelbase similar to the R10. Even LMP2s like the Acura ARX-01 and Porsche RS Spyder had wheelbases of around 114 inches.

[hondafan37]

https://web.facebook.com/fiawec/videos/3821521384570954

[peetleouf]

https://www.autohebdo.fr/wec/actuali...10-215306.html

[tux]

So in short the whole thing was pointless, they look just like LMP1

[Simmi]

That's a nice looking P1... I mean Hypercar.

[Mike E]

I would like to see the LMH and LMP1 side by side.

[Simmi]

Here we go. Side on is the new car's best angle IMO.

[canaglia]

well... for what can I say, GR010 looks like a hypercar as TS020/gt-one supposed to be a gt... it's clearly based on a lmp1 design adapted to new aero/chassis regulations like taller splitter, longer wheelbase, different rear wing structure etc....
about the R13 alpine matter... clearly the car will receive a big power cut and it's basically impossible that will remain 835kg heavy.

[S griffin]

Doesn’t look too much different from their LMP car, except maybe more compact

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by tux

So in short the whole thing was pointless, they look just like LMP1

Yes. Excellent!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yes. Excellent!

this is the bit i just dont get with hypercar.

Theyre introducing a class that has cars that look the same as LMP2 the same target lap time as current LMP2, but will cost a lot more than LMP2 and requires current LMP2 to be slowed down.

To me, thats why LMDh makes more sense......or DPi for that matter

Tbh it would have made more sense to me to have the LMDh/dpi rules instead of hyper and keep LMP2 as they were so in essence you have Prototype Pro and Prototype Pro/AM classes.

[GT6]

Well if that is the new reg car then i think spot the difference will be the new lockdown game.

[WyldStallion]

Seriously what a let down. "hypercar" was supposed to be look different from LMP. That is why I was looking forward to it. Not anymore.

F the WEC. You guys suck. Dropping the ball on the whole entire category for allowing Toyota to do this.

This is not the GR Super Sport its the TS050 slightly modified.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by joeb

Hard to tell much of anything from the grainy pics but I kind of like it. It got me thinking, the last Toyota top level "GT" car was widely loved despite not looking like the other street based GT1 cars of the time. It looked like a straight prototype and that was good enough for us back then. Plus, if cost is supposed to be a factor in the new rules, why wouldn't you take what you've learned from the TS050 and apply it to the new car?

Widely loved? No it was not. Back then I knew the Toyota GT1 was a category killer. I loved the McLarens and original Porsche GT1s. I thought the Porsche GT1 1998 car pushed the boundaries of the class. Toyota burried it.

Doing so now. They ruined the idea of the hypercar class before it even started.

[kvenom]

So after all that we ended up with a slower, heavier, less advanced, more fuel burning (guessing) LMP car completely BoP’d. Progress.

[gert]

Originally Posted by kvenom

So after all that we ended up with a slower, heavier, less advanced, more fuel burning (guessing) LMP car completely BoP’d. Progress.

If it results in better racing I would call that progress, yes!

More advanced cars
Faster cars
More expensive cars
don't always gurantee better racing.

Especially not if all these 3 are combined.

[Lutzvic]

Originally Posted by gert

If it results in better racing I would call that progress, yes!

More advanced cars
Faster cars
More expensive cars
don't always gurantee better racing.

Especially not if all these 3 are combined.

I hope you are right.
However I fear Glickenhaus will get a shitty BoP, as they are marginal for the ACO. The only hope is French pride.....so Alpine will be competitive against TGR....and reliability..
BoP is false egalitarism......but it is another topic....
I fear the real race comes first in 2022 with Peugeot back on the track....

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by kvenom

So after all that we ended up with a slower, heavier, less advanced, more fuel burning (guessing) LMP car completely BoP’d. Progress.

Thought we were getting GR Super Sport. Nope. Got TS050 slightly modified.

[chernaudi]

The reason for LMH/LMDH is to reduce costs to try and get both OEMs and privateers back in, possibly with customer cars from factory teams. I can remember when people were saying that the Audi R10 was beyond private teams being able to run them. Now, there's 1-2 in private hands in running order. The LMP1 hybrids were magnitudes more complex than the R10 and much more expensive.

One of the easiest ways to reduce cost is "dumb down" the hybrid tech to basically what we had in 2013, and raise minimum weight. 1030kg may sound excessive (and IMO probably is), but it's still in line with the 775kg to 900kg weight increases in LMP2 from 2006-2011. That much weight increase was to reduce costs and encourage volume sales compared to say, the Porsche RS Spyder, which was basically a lightweight, small engined LMP1 spec car of it's era and just as if not more expensive.

I'd rather see 900-925kg cars, but we also have to remember that bigger engines also tend to be less expensive than the smaller engines (using F1-type engines killed Group C, remember).

The rules are what they are, and we can either live with them, or leave it. And after the debacle of the 2014-20 LMP1 rules, if it gets more cars in, produces good racing and adds variety, I'm in favor of even LMDH, even if I don't agree with everything in it's concept.

And that's what I don't get about a lot of things in life in general nowadays, that if you don't whole-heartedly toe the line on something, you're an edgelord clout-chaser or edgy. Individual thought is what makes people and things interesting, and if we all thought the same, I probably wouldn't bother being on this forum. I don't even agree with LMH and would've rather seen a return to a modernized LMP900/first gen (2004-08) LMP1. But IMO, overall, LMH and LMDH are still probably a lot better than the past few years.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The reason for LMH/LMDH is to reduce costs to try and get both OEMs and privateers back in, possibly with customer cars from factory teams. I can remember when people were saying that the Audi R10 was beyond private teams being able to run them. Now, there's 1-2 in private hands in running order. The LMP1 hybrids were magnitudes more complex than the R10 and much more expensive.

One of the easiest ways to reduce cost is "dumb down" the hybrid tech to basically what we had in 2013, and raise minimum weight. 1030kg may sound excessive (and IMO probably is), but it's still in line with the 775kg to 900kg weight increases in LMP2 from 2006-2011. That much weight increase was to reduce costs and encourage volume sales compared to say, the Porsche RS Spyder, which was basically a lightweight, small engined LMP1 spec car of it's era and just as if not more expensive.

I'd rather see 900-925kg cars, but we also have to remember that bigger engines also tend to be less expensive than the smaller engines (using F1-type engines killed Group C, remember).

The rules are what they are, and we can either live with them, or leave it. And after the debacle of the 2014-20 LMP1 rules, if it gets more cars in, produces good racing and adds variety, I'm in favor of even LMDH, even if I don't agree with everything in it's concept.

And that's what I don't get about a lot of things in life in general nowadays, that if you don't whole-heartedly toe the line on something, you're an edgelord clout-chaser or edgy. Individual thought is what makes people and things interesting, and if we all thought the same, I probably wouldn't bother being on this forum. I don't even agree with LMH and would've rather seen a return to a modernized LMP900/first gen (2004-08) LMP1. But IMO, overall, LMH and LMDH are still probably a lot better than the past few years.

You are correct on every point you made. A car builder can still achieve everything you mention but make the car look like a GT1 car rather than a LMP in the spirit of LMH initially.

[deggis]

Not sure if I believe these...

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...-hypercar.html

Toyota sources have confirmed that rumours of a ‘dumbed down’ TS050 powertrain package are entirely incorrect.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...ybrid-hypercar

"Except the generic parts like switches, sensors and such, there are hardly any carry-over parts between the two cars because the regulation philosophy is very different," he said. "It is a completely new car."

[deggis]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Seriously what a let down. "hypercar" was supposed to be look different from LMP. That is why I was looking forward to it. Not anymore.

F the WEC. You guys suck. Dropping the ball on the whole entire category for allowing Toyota to do this.

This is not the GR Super Sport its the TS050 slightly modified.

Your disappointment is merely because wrong expectations you created yourself. There has never been a rule that requires non-LMP looks in any iteration of the rules (which have remained very similar for 2+ years minus the Aston Martin/Valkyrie excursion).

[chernaudi]

I always thought that LMH would be DPI on roids. Which IMO isn't entirely a bad thing. I do hope that LMH and LMDH would help make the cars look different to each other and open things up a bit.

Obviously, because of the wider cockpit, the GR010 doesn't share its tub with the TS050, but it does share several concepts with it. I don't know if I agree with the "dumbed down" hybrid, because to make a constant 680+bhp, once the 250bhp hybrid dies down, the engine will have to take over with making the best part of 700bhp on its own.

I also wonder (in general, not just for Toyota) how much the 1030kg min weight will slow these cars down. I know that the ACO are looking to getting them back to 2006-2007 laptimes (which I sort of doubt due to how much progress has been made in terms of tire tech alone, let alone other know-how gained since then). Of course in 2006/07 the Audi R10 (which set the representative in race laptimes those years) was rated at between 650-700bph and weighed 925kgs on near 15 year old tires compared to now. So I don't know how relevant the comparison is there based on those facts alone.

[DistortedSmile]

Very dissapointing, it's just an LMP with less awkward proportions, they could've at least changed the TS050 headlights to something similar to the GR SuperSport.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

this is the bit i just dont get with hypercar.

Theyre introducing a class that has cars that look the same as LMP2 the same target lap time as current LMP2, but will cost a lot more than LMP2 and requires current LMP2 to be slowed down.

To me, thats why LMDh makes more sense......or DPi for that matter

Tbh it would have made more sense to me to have the LMDh/dpi rules instead of hyper and keep LMP2 as they were so in essence you have Prototype Pro and Prototype Pro/AM classes.

I don't really see the problem with having both classes, it's all going to be BoP'd anyway and the LMH option is there for manufacturers who would rather build their own car and don't mind the extra costs involved with doing so.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Widely loved? No it was not. Back then I knew the Toyota GT1 was a category killer. I loved the McLarens and original Porsche GT1s. I thought the Porsche GT1 1998 car pushed the boundaries of the class. Toyota burried it.

Doing so now. They ruined the idea of the hypercar class before it even started.

The TS020 absolutely was widely loved and still is, that you don't like it is an entirely different thing. Funny you should mention the original GT1 Porsches since they started the homologation special trend that eventually killed the class and were against the spirit of the rules as much as the later more extreme cars like the Mercedes and the Toyota, the difference is Toyota never bothered pretending the cars were anything other than prototypes.

[WyldStallion]

Originally Posted by deggis

Your disappointment is merely because wrong expectations you created yourself. There has never been a rule that requires non-LMP looks in any iteration of the rules (which have remained very similar for 2+ years minus the Aston Martin/Valkyrie excursion).

It was not wrong expectations. To return to the GT1 look is exactly what was promoted. Look how much they hyped the Valkyrie when they thought they were going to run it. Look at the early rumors of the class back in 2018/2019. The expectation was set by then. Got us fans hyped and now Toyota drops us a whimper. The first sign that I got though that this category was going to be a let down was the reveal of the ByKolles "hypercar" last year.