FIA announces standard engine tender!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by RaiseYourFist

And where exactly will these private teams get their budget from?

Apparently the money provided by FOM is all you'll need to have a competetive season in F1.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Apparently the money provided by FOM is all you'll need to have a competetive season in F1.

This is the big flaw in the plan.
There is an asumption that the 'show' will gather the same revenues. It may. Or it may not.

What may very well happen is that the teams that do appear and run may once again gather their own identities and fan base as in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, with their own names, not those of the car makers.

This in many ways insulates the sport from the manufacturers, making it appear like a sport not a commercial competition between multinational companies, and contributes to the 'village' atmosphere where an event is more like a travelling circus than the Olympics.
It will never go back to what it was in the 70's, but it could be come a lot more 'public' friendly than it has been over the last ten-fifteen years.

[duke_toaster]

Martin - FOM is the problem. The NFL is probably the healthiest sports league in existance. The way to sort the F1 problem for the teams is simple. Wasn't there some business about FOM possibly winding up for sale due to the collapse of Lehman Brothers?

FOTA should try to buy out FOM and make it basically a co-operative of the teams for the health of the sport.

EDIT after Teratonga's post appearing : I agree that F1 ought to become for fan friendly. First thing I would do is one of FOTA's proposals : set out tables in the pit lane after practice on Friday and make the drivers sign autographs. Open paddock like BTCC and SF. TV should also gain more access. IMO ALL telementary data (and there should be much less of it - cost cutting time!) should available for the TV feed. We currently have a standard ECU. If the FIA provide a data logging kit that measures throttle position, brake position, steering wheel position, revs, gear, temperatures and so-on and makes it available for the TV feed it would be better. TV has to explain about McLarens being quicker to warm up tyres than the Ferrari - well, what about having a TV graphic on the screen showing the tyre temperatures of the car.

Sorry about some abbreviation - time limit.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Martin - FOM is the problem. The NFL is probably the healthiest sports league in existance. The way to sort the F1 problem for the teams is simple. Wasn't there some business about FOM possibly winding up for sale due to the collapse of Lehman Brothers?

FOTA should try to buy out FOM and make it basically a co-operative of the teams.

The Lehman Bros stake was a minority share so that will not work.

Again they have hardly agreed on anything in the past so its unlikely they could run their own future. The manufacturers maybe through economic necessity but the team owners (Frank, Ron and co-) No way. They're too competitive for their own good.

[Marbot]

The FIA are not giving up on the 'standard' engine.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71773

[mjstallard]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

EDIT after Teratonga's post appearing : I agree that F1 ought to become for fan friendly. First thing I would do is one of FOTA's proposals : set out tables in the pit lane after practice on Friday and make the drivers sign autographs. Open paddock like BTCC and SF. TV should also gain more access. IMO ALL telementary data (and there should be much less of it - cost cutting time!) should available for the TV feed. We currently have a standard ECU. If the FIA provide a data logging kit that measures throttle position, brake position, steering wheel position, revs, gear, temperatures and so-on and makes it available for the TV feed it would be better. TV has to explain about McLarens being quicker to warm up tyres than the Ferrari - well, what about having a TV graphic on the screen showing the tyre temperatures of the car..

Off topic, I know, but...
I'm sure I remember seeing FOM graphics indicating tyre temps earlier this year/last year (in fact I remember people saying how naff they looked). I believe that there are useful data feeds available to broadcasters, it's just that the delivery of these feeds to the public is problematic. Graphical overlays are a bugger for broadcasters "downstream" as FOM have left little screen real estate to play with. Going down the interactive TV (i.e. red button) route is also out of the window as current interactive TV offerings have way too much latency to be useful. Once IPTV starts rolling out to the consumer in the next year or two though, we'll probably see more fancy pants stuff appearing.

But I agree, F1 could be much more fan friendly if it wanted to be. Even simple stuff, like not pulling videos off Youtube would be a start.

Anyway - interesting to see that Max clearly didn't think that the FOTA agreements were enough. I do wonder if Bernie and Max have decided that they want to be rid of the manufacturers...

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The FIA are not giving up on the 'standard' engine.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71773

I still find it very hard to imagine the FIA is truly aiming at getting this extreme proposal through, but rather is using it as a negotiating mechanism, but let us suppose this is truly their intent as they have outlined it. We can only assume the FIA has decided to shunt the manufacturers out of the sport through the backdoor. This isn't necessarily a terrible thing in and of itself, but it does all rather hinge precariously on the FIA having a properly detailed plan of action for the post-manufacturer era.

On this latter point I cannot admit to great confidence.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The FIA are not giving up on the 'standard' engine.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71773

... and did you see that no F1 manufacturer will be involved in the tendering process. Looks like the beginning of a stand off !

[johntt]

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=it&tl=en

Ferrari threaten to leave F1 over standard engine. The FIA will have to back down now.

[Dutton]

Ferrari wouldn't leave F1, in my opinion. They have way too much involved with it. They're just starting to make their noises in the interests of starting the compromise process with the FIA. We see this FIA-Ferrari tit-for-tat periodically, but it isn't like it every truly amounts to such extreme endgames. Ferrari wants to be in F1, and the FIA/FOM want Ferrari to be in F1. Something agreeable is always be worked out.

[davyboy]

They've threatened to leave Formula One before and take their toys to play somewhere else. I think the FIA should call their bluff and tell them its this way or arrivederci !

[Stefvh]

So, RIP, F1.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Stefvh

So, RIP, F1.

On the contrary actually. The standard engine, coupled with customer chassis could be the best thing to ever happen to F1. All the FIA needs to do is to open it up now so that we get a lot more teams involved - imagine 40 competitive cars fighting for 24 grid slots... it would make qualifying a whole lot more exciting too !

[Dutton]

I have no problem with customer chassis, but this standardised engine affair I am not at all in love with. I'd still follow F1, and all that, of course, but I do think it would be a sad day when we got spec engines.

40 cars for 24 spots? Why not just 40 cars for 40 spots? I suppose 40 for 32 could be bearable, .

[duke_toaster]

Customer chassis could be bearable, but the standard engine will kill F1 as we know it. I hope it does not happen but a solution that is suitable for privateers and manufacturers comes up.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Customer chassis could be bearable, but the standard engine will kill F1 as we know it. I hope it does not happen but a solution that is suitable for privateers and manufacturers comes up.

Guys we had a 'standard' engine from 1967 through the early 1980s. It was called the Ford Cosworth DFV and F1 survived pretty well. Not only that but it provided the foundation for some of the most successful teams in the sport's history.

If this is left as it is, the economic crisis will ensure that there'll be no manufacturers in F1 and F1 as we know will then definitely cease to be.

[Stefvh]

The DFV was not imposed. That makes things a little different.

[Dutton]

Exactly. I wouldn't mind de facto spec, although would not prefer it (the DFV era wasn't really even de facto spec, either, although it did give it a fair old go at times). There is a big difference between de facto spec and mandated spec.

I can bear with engine freezes, and such: I do not much like it, but I can tolerate it. I can also live with the scenario like we have now where the rules are rather restrictive on the engine front, although I don't particularly love it. I really don't particularly like the increasingly-long-life stuff either, but I can certainly live with it without too much of a complaint. I don't particularly like parc ferme rules either, but I can live with this also.

I have, I think, a pretty reasonable tolerance for things not being as I would like them to be. However, to my mind, this totally spec engine business is "not cricket" as it were. I'd watch F1 the same as always, but it really would leave me with a particularly bad taste.

[the sniper]

English report:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/271020...t-formula.html

It's funny how everybody has been thinking about the likes of Toyota and Honda pulling out, forgetting about Ferrari, when if you really think about it, Ferrari have the most to loose from this single spec Formula 1.

The whole reason Ferrari are in Formula 1 is to promote their brand as being unique, different from the other sports car manufacturers. They like to advertise the connection between their road and Formula 1 cars, much more then any other manufacturer. How can can they do this if their F1 cars aren't even using Ferrari engines, instead their using the same Cosworth engines as everybody else.

Of course, there's the actual on track performance to take into account, unlike others Ferrari will only loose out from engine equalisation.

Ferrari is the only team that can stop the FIA's single spec juggernaut now, I never thought I would be so glad of Ferrari's 'special' relationship with them.

On a side note, Ferrari's threat to pull out has triggered the first main stream news interest in the single spec move, just seen it reported on Channel 4.

[Teretonga]

Yes but look at the rules for the tenderer.
They cannot use any advertising rights.
They make compenents but the teams can use their own block and assemble the engines....
They wouldn't necessarily have to completely close their engine operations. They could still be Ferrari, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes built engines. They would just use many outside components. Some of them do that now but probably not on the same scale. The design is specified so they all have the same engine but how much variation is allowed.

Well the FIA has specified a 1% tolerance!
So a 700 hp engine will all be within 7 hp of that 700hp...
Som etenderes have questioned that possibility on the basis of current technology.
If a team has its own block, will frictional losses etc account for more than 1%. The tenderers say it will, the FIA says it will not tolerate such a scenario!

So is it all posturing? They haven't got a tender yet... (They close November 7th, announcement on Nov 28th.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Guys we had a 'standard' engine from 1967 through the early 1980s. It was called the Ford Cosworth DFV and F1 survived pretty well. Not only that but it provided the foundation for some of the most successful teams in the sport's history.

No. It was not a standard engine. There were Ferrari V12s, Renault Turbos, Matra units and so-on. The DFV card is a total fallacy.

My proposal to fix the situation

2009 - Impose a must supply price of €2M for a sensible number of engines per season per team. 17,500 RPM limit and four race engines.
2010 - Two in-season test weekends per season. Customer chassis permitted with a mandatory supply price of €2.5M for a reasonable number per team per season. Spares would have to be sold at a reasonable price list. Engines and chassis may be badge engineered for extra manufacturer exposure (The same engine could be in the Toyota as a Toyota but in the Williams badged as Lexus).
2011 - Scrapping of the teams limit/closed shop system.
At the end of the financial issue, presumably 2012 or later - €2M price cap for engines kept. Environmental and cost cutting focused engine regs. No engine may produce more than 800 horsepower at any point (enforced by rolling road runs). Bonus points in the WCC will be awarded for fuel economy. Four engines per season per car.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

No. It was not a standard engine. There were Ferrari V12s, Renault Turbos, Matra units and so-on. The DFV card is a total fallacy.

Of course the DFV wasn't imposed and I know that different builders squeezed more from the base unit BUT it was used by the vast majority of teams over that period of time, so it was to all intents and purposed the defact power unit for F1 cars.

By and large the Ferrari power unit was the only consistent challenger to the DFV. For sure, Alfa, Matra, Renault pitched in... but in small volume for a short time. The 1970s was the era of the DFV and an illustration of what's possible when the vast majority of the grid are using one power unit.

[Marbot]

TBH,FOTAs proposal of extending a two race engine to a three race engine,with slightly cheaper supply to independent teams is hardly what you might call a huge cut in expenditure.They are going to have to come up with something more radical than that in order to convince Max of their intensions to cut costs.

From the FIA website.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre...nsmission.aspx

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by davyboy

On the contrary actually. The standard engine, coupled with customer chassis could be the best thing to ever happen to F1.

Imagine they would have introduced this in 1950. The current engines would still producing only 150bhp and be in front of the driver.

Nice!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The current engines would still producing only 150bhp and be in front of the driver.

Nice!

So,a bit like road cars then.

Maybe if the engines were still a 1.5 litre NA configuration we wouldn't be having these problems.

But of course the easiest way to make engines more powerful is to increase their capacity or stick a turbo on.Cheap and cheerful every time.