How Do We Judge a Marshal's Abilities?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by SamWaters

Why is age such a big issue??

I am not marshalling anymore due to some peoples attitudes to age - having been marshalling for 3 years or so.

Last year I had a whole weekend of being told as a Trainee I was to stay next to the hut all weekend and not to go trackside under any circumstances unless it was at the end of a session for sweeping etc.

Problem being I had actually been Track Marshal for around 18 months, it was assumed that I was a Trainee by my age ... 20 at the time. However for that year my card had signatures for the F1 British Grand Prix (which you can't do as a trainee), Goodwood Festival of Speed, Goodwood Revival and loads of other meetings.

Just a question here. Why did you put up with a whole weekend of being treated as a trainee? As my old granny used to say, you've got a mouth in your head - why didn't you point out that you weren't a trainee?

Both the assumption that you were a trainee & the way in which you, as someone assumed to be a trainee, are unacceptable, but your acceptance of the situation could be seen as counterproductive.

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

If you ask the PC to sign your record card then he/she can see you grade there.

Not necessarily. I've recently been on post with people whose MSA card is showing a grade higher than their current one.

[SamWaters]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Just a question here. Why did you put up with a whole weekend of being treated as a trainee? As my old granny used to say, you've got a mouth in your head - why didn't you point out that you weren't a trainee?

Both the assumption that you were a trainee & the way in which you, as someone assumed to be a trainee, are unacceptable, but your acceptance of the situation could be seen as counterproductive.

I can see exactly what you mean, quite simply because I had plenty of other stuff going on away from the circuit that I just needed to get away from so couldn't be bothered with arguing it, just wanted a weekend away doing something I enjoyed ... just easy to keep mouth shut and get on with the job. Also the attitude of the Post Chief seemed rather aggresive and hostile from the moment he arrived on post.

The Post Chief had my card on the side in the hut along with everyone elses, one quick check and he would have seen my licence and the signatures in the card that I mentioned above (F1BGP, FoS etc) and seen that I wasn't a trainee.

[juliet]

My first event was the F3s and GTs at silverstone last year, and i was paired up with Hairy DJ.

I am not known for being shy and retiring but was a little nervous and excited about marshalling my first proper meeting.

I remember the day as if it was yesterday because i went away glowing and not being able to wait until my next meeting, even tho nothing happened on our post all weekend. HairyDJ made me feel involved, made an effort to get to know me and most importantly get to know what had made me start marshalling. he took time and patience to explain what marshals are there for (not just waving flags and hauling things out of gravel i was supprised to hear) and talk me through some of his experiences and different situations that you can find yourself in as a marshal.

I learnt so much that day with out even touching a car. I am not saying your can learn how to do everything with out touching a car but i bet the best trainees (and no i am not including myself in this list) had this sort of start to marhsalling, feeling valued and having everything explained well to them.

This was just my first experience of the vast learning curve of being a marshal, i still learn something every time i go out on post, whether it be that moslers dont hit tyre barriers they bury under them or that smart cars roll better than dice

I have done about 15 days marshalling so far and there is no way that i am close to being ready to upgrade, i wouldnt dream of it until i have marshalled a bigger range of meetings and worked with more people in more situations.

So sorry for the waffle but i guess what i am saying is quite often we moan about how people have treated us etc but i want to say a massive thank you to HairyDJ and EVERYONE who has looked after me on post in the last year

[chriskench]

on the assament day what would i have to do is there anything differant goes on from my point of view i have done about 30 days so far but not sure what people think of upgradeing yet or not

[aland]

oops wrong thread

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by chriskench

on the assament day what would i have to do is there anything differant goes on

The Assessment Guidelines document, downloadable from here:

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/conten...sp?article=758

will give you an idea of what's involved.

from my point of view i have done about 30 days so far but not sure what people think of upgradeing yet or not

It's not the number of days that counts, it's what you've done with those days.

[Oscar114]

Welcome to marshalling I'm in my 5th season and every session learn something new, so don't think it's only trainees which learn. Everyone has different experiences which we can all share.

Originally Posted by Alchamist

1. How much experience is "enough" for a trainee? I would like to eventually move on from trainee status - not for power or glory, but for the good of marshalling events. Having seen how thin on the ground some of these meetings can be, I figure that it will be helpful at some point. That said, I know full well that at the moment I know precisely nothing about marshalling. So, how do you know when is the right time to go for the upgrade?

There are the minimum requirements of 10 days marshalling, 1 training day and 2 assessment days (1 incident and 1 flag).

The thing to remember is that when you goto track marshal you maybe teamed up with a trainee to help their development. So do you feel that you have enough experience to handle the incident and guide a trainee and ensure that you are both safe.

Originally Posted by Alchamist

2. I have seen the various clichés banded around - "There is no stupid question", "The only stupid question is the one you don't ask" etc etc. The problem is, as I know nothing about marshalling at this point, how do I know what questions to ask? If I haven't seen a major incident, how do I know what questions to ask about handling it? It has been mentioned in this thread that asking the wrong question can lead some people to look somewhat down on the trainee, thinking they are glory hunting or trying to rush through grades. I didn't get into marshalling to rush through and do the F1. In fact, from what I have seen I will be concentrating on the smaller meets where you get to see some real grass roots racing. That said, however, F1 is a part of motorsport, and knowing how to get into it if you wanted to at some point in the future surely isn't a bad thing to ask, and doesn't make me a bad marshal for asking it?

Some of your questions (that you don't know what they are yet) will be answered at the training day.

The important basic things that you need to know are what hand signals to use, how to approach a vehicle after impact, which order to look after people / cars, how to check and use an extinguisher.

Important things are to look after your safety first then the driver and then the car. (think these maybe slightly different for bike marshalling which I have no experience of)

Listen to post briefings for specific items for that post.

Originally Posted by Alchamist

3. When attendance levels are low for some of these meetings, and schedules are run so tight as to eliminate most breaks between sessions when there is a change in weather or similar, how do I as a trainee then expect those around me to have the time to discuss questions I might have when we should be focused on the track and what is going on there? I have been very fortunate in the few days I have had to have been posted with someone who has had a very "hands on" approach and got me involved straight away, which has been excellent, but the amount of time available and incidents seen to be able to ask questions were fairly low.

You will find that most of your fellow marshals will have no issues in having these sort of conversations whilst the session is running as long as you are both observing the traffic coming towards you. It maybe worth going silent whilst the field come past and then carry on if they are all bunched up.
I'm sure that they would be happier with someone who has asked some questions rather than nothing.

Good luck, enjoy your marshalling and ask those questions.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

If you ask the PC to sign your record card then he/she can see you grade there.

*if*

My next upgrade is PC.....I'm in no hurry.

[Chris Hobson]

We have just (yesterday) had a meeting of the MSA Marshals Working Group at which the grading scheme was a main point of discussion.

There will be official announcement shortly in the MSA news etc. that will also be sent out to all clubs for them to distribute to all marshals, but we are tightening up the requirements for upgrading in response to the comments we have received (we do listen to constructive comments honestly).

here are some of the highlights:
The number of attendance day signatures will be increasing for all grades,
the training days will need to be a minimum 12 months apart,
the PRC has been redesigned to give more prominence to comments,
the modules needed to be covered in each training day have been detailed and signatures will be required for each,
the guidelines are being updated and all examining grades will be given a more detailed set of notes as to how the end of grade assessment should be carried out.
All attendance signatures should be accompanied by a comment on the marshal's activities that day

There are numerous other changes, but basically all will come into effect on January 1 ready for next season.

This is just a little advanced notice and you should see a marked difference.

The scheme is intended to ensure we keep the standard of marshalling in this country at the very top world level - I hope that when the full details of the changes are released you will see that they should help us in that aim.

As always, please address any queries to me and I will try to get you an answer - it may not be an instant reply, but you will get one

[Nighthawk]

Well i think this is good news

[Chigley]

All attendance signatures should be accompanied by a comment on the marshal's activities that day

For BTCC meetings can the PC's please have a shorthand secretary assigned to each post.

[juliet]

Originally Posted by Chigley

For BTCC meetings can the PC's please have a shorthand secretary assigned to each post.

Think this should be extended to any ginetta meetings too!

[Bodysnatcher]

One the whole, a set of welcome steps forward.

Originally Posted by Chris Hobson

All attendance signatures should be accompanied by a comment on the marshal's activities that day

Thank goodness it's only should. If it was must, my limited powers of diplomacy would be tested.
OTOH, it still means comments are optional, and TBH very few (if any) comments highlight serious issues. In all the years of looking at cards I can't remember seeing more than a couple that were tactfully phrased.
like

"Needs to focus now on observational skills"
"would benefit from working with an experienced flag marshal"
(that one sounded like damning 2 marshals with one comment)

For many a PRC is superfluous & they tend not to put a card forward, after all, a PRC is only required if you wish to upgrade. It is neither required for retention nor is it required as validation of ability to be present in a given role (especially at oversubscribed events).

I'd like to see "licence" cards and PRCs presented by all marshals at the start of the day. Notification by written report to CM if not presented. Many clubs have a post manning sheet returned to the CM as part of regular procedure. This information could be added to that.

Too harsh maybe?

PS.
As an examining PC. I don't go looking for the CoC, Chief marshal or other exPCs to sign my attendances. Should I do this in future?

[numbersix]

Let me see now. As the cars go past I need to record what goes wrong and which car numbers it goes wrong to, taking note of the weather, track conditions, oil, debris, etc. At the same time I call race control with one hand, whilst writing reports with the other including a graphic representation of the incident to a scale 1:25000 including box and flag positions and which flags, if any, were being shown and for how long, using a tilted drawing board and T square thoughtfully provided by the circuit owners.

At the same time I am checking flag signals (with particular attention to newish, less-experienced flaggies), making sure Hazard Boards are deployed and calling RC with the times.

And for every PRC I've got to fight my way into the cover, extract the card which disintegrates in my hand with half the pages flying 'round the box in the wind like dust in a Dyson. Then I have to check previous comments which have been written in Hieroglyphics and then find out that the first three columns haven't been filled out by the marshal concerned, so I've got to write date, event and duty while trying to identify who the marshal is from a photo taken in 1972.

I've thrown the telephone log out of the window, and I've got a clerk fuming in his car because I'm taking too long.

At the same time I am now scrutinising all the marshals with a view to writing an individual Curriculum Vitae of the day's activities (and if I was an XPC I'd be assessing up to two marshals [incorporating a recommended 30 minute interview]) at the same time. And if there's no lunch break it's now my fault if I don't organise stand down time for marshals, I've got to call RC to organise comfort breaks for the ladies if there's no Porta-bog.

Meanwhile, the other week I am listening in to (aka nosing in) to a conversation in which a marshal says, "Bloody Observers. Sit there all day doin' b***** all..."

Does this sound familiar, PC people, or is it just me.

[Chris Hobson]

Absolutely no need to chase sigs unless you are wanting to upgrade - and since you are already an X grade there is no next step (unless you fancy moving into race control?????????????????????????????????????)

[Bodysnatcher]

Race Control
hold on let me put a date in my million years to a page diary.
sorry, maybe on the next page

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Does this sound familiar, PC people, or is it just me.

you do all THAT!
(jeez no wonder it took me so long to get my ex bit)

time management lad..secret of my success
(or get the other buggers to do it, as part of a learning process, of course)

[Nighthawk]

But 12 sigs are needed to prove attendance for BGP....or do we just record our meetings and hope MSA/Clubs have correct records....Not that i do the BGP..?

[Alchamist]

Originally Posted by numbersix

And for every PRC I've got to fight my way into the cover, extract the card which disintegrates in my hand with half the pages flying 'round the box in the wind like dust in a Dyson. Then I have to check previous comments which have been written in Hieroglyphics and then find out that the first three columns haven't been filled out by the marshal concerned, so I've got to write date, event and duty while trying to identify who the marshal is from a photo taken in 1972.

...

At the same time I am now scrutinising all the marshals with a view to writing an individual Curriculum Vitae of the day's activities (and if I was an XPC I'd be assessing up to two marshals [incorporating a recommended 30 minute interview]) at the same time. And if there's no lunch break it's now my fault if I don't organise stand down time for marshals, I've got to call RC to organise comfort breaks for the ladies if there's no Porta-bog.

So, yeah - I'm doomed to not getting signatures/comments!

[Bodysnatcher]

Thats it tho - the PRC is not used to prove sufficient attendance for GP selection - the form you fill in is self certification.
I send mine to my BMMC contact and TBH, how do they know (the selection commitee) what I've done (or not) without investing some serious time and effort? Otherwise it's the few meetings where we've coincidentally met.

The self certification has to be taken as honest and truthful, but rumours abound (as ever) that some make it look better than reality.

[pauln]

BGP applications all go through the club, who are supposed to validate and pass on. If they can't confirm honesty on how many days you've done for them who else could? And if you're honest about what you've done for them, it's reasonable of them to expect you're being honest about what you've done that wasn't for them.

[Bodysnatcher]

Ha - but say my primary application is through BRSCC - if I do 4 days for 750, 6 for BARC, 8 for MSVR and 3 for BRSCC.
All they have a record of is 3, which therefore is all I need to be completely truthful about.

liars are not reasonable people. Hence photocopy of a PRC with application.

as it is my primary is BMMC - who afaik run no meetings at all any more

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by numbersix

And for every PRC ........then find out that the first three columns haven't been filled out by the marshal concerned, so I've got to write date, event and duty

Absolutely no requirement to do that! (It does say somewhere, in some official ramblings that the marshal seeking a sig will complete these fields before handing in the card)

Originally Posted by numbersix

Does this sound familiar, PC people, or is it just me.

It really IS just YOU!!!

[Chris Hobson]

1. Mr Mitchell - my guidelines are NOT "Ramblings" (unlike some entries on this forum!!!!!!!
2. MArshals are encouraged to fill in the basic details for the day BEFORE handing the card to the Post Chief
3. We review the GP forms and rely on your honesty - if we suspect a form is incorrect we may well check back on the organising clubs sign on sheets
4. The new PRC will come with a wallet designed to also hold the credit card size registration card (they look very good by the way - whic is probably more than we willbe able to say about the photos on them) so the PC will see both at each meeting if someone is seeking a signature.