Mini Challenge Crash at QLD Raceway - Spectator Safety

[STEALTHY]

Just incase anyone was interested, the minis will be telecast today, might be better views of the crash (plus what happened in the lead up to it).

Showing at 2:30pm Adelaide time.

[BFC]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

I seem to recall being at Sandown in the days of the Mazda 121 (is that the right one??) series where one of the cars (all female drivers btw) upended itself. Because of the shape of the car when it ended up on its roof it just rolled backwards and forwards on its roof. Shouldn;t laugh - but this made me think then, and again now, that some cars should NEVER be on the race track.

Same Series turn 1 Calder park rollover

[GTRMagic]

Sarah Harley Crash

Stuck throttle? Hmmm... the car got a serious wobble coming into the braking area.. if the engine was running on, a clutch in/engine off scenario might have avoided what seems a $20k rebuild

The rears of these cars are light.. doesnt matter if they way 200kg more than a V8Supercar, the way the rear danced in the run up to falling off the road shows that high speed stability on what isnt a very high speed track was definitely wanting in this particular chassis.

Heaven help them at Phillip Island through turns 1 & 2, or at Bathurst at the Dipper or thru the Chase...

I too remember the Mazda 121 "tits up" that rocked backwards and forwards like an old time rubber stamp across paper. And the Suzuki GTi series that trashed every spare panel in Australia, emptied wreckers, emptied Holden dealers, then emptied Suzuki Japan...

Funny I dont recall the same issues back in the Laser series.. a better car, or slower so you couldnt destroy them? Daewoos were similarly inclined to few serious wrecks like that..

Are the Minis too powerful for their drivers?

[chavez]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Funny I dont recall the same issues back in the Laser series.. a better car, or slower so you couldnt destroy them? Daewoos were similarly inclined to few serious wrecks like that..

The Laser's (or the Pulsar's) weren't adverse to rolling over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfRAfJ4XaFw

[GTRMagic]

The Lasers never travelled at rocket ship speeds... with their "Good Year Grand Rally 'S'" tyres aboard from the series sponsor, they would never threaten outright lap records... did you see the "tank slappers"... over and over...

...yet the Minis arent that far off the big guns in speed...

Would you give a V8Supercar to a driver to race, someone who had never had their bum in one? Or in anything similarly quick?

Those Pulsar ET Turbos tipped over a bit, but in a 'light roll' scenario as opposed to a 'Bill Brown special'

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Sarah Harley Crash

Stuck throttle? Hmmm... the car got a serious wobble coming into the braking area.. if the engine was running on, a clutch in/engine off scenario might have avoided what seems a $20k rebuild

I seem to recall these cars have some kind of sequential box, correct me if I'm wrong I don't remember exactly.

I'd be curious to know if she is a left foot braker. If she is that might explain something...

Unfortunately for a lot of drivers they don't seem to understand that full steering lock and locked wheels isn't going to help you any. You're in a skid and doing all that just makes it worse and you are now at the mercy of your momentum.

Really what she needed to do was clutch in(assuming the stuck throttle was the real deal), unwind the wheel, unlock the brakes by curling her toes back and eyes looking where she needed to go.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I seem to recall these cars have some kind of sequential box, correct me if I'm wrong I don't remember exactly.

I'd be curious to know if she is a left foot braker. If she is that might explain something...

Unfortunately for a lot of drivers they don't seem to understand that full steering lock and locked wheels isn't going to help you any. You're in a skid and doing all that just makes it worse and you are now at the mercy of your momentum.

Really what she needed to do was clutch in(assuming the stuck throttle was the real deal), unwind the wheel, unlock the brakes by curling her toes back and eyes looking where she needed to go.

She said she turned full lock to the right to avoid hitting the other car......

[alfacors]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I seem to recall these cars have some kind of sequential box, correct me if I'm wrong I don't remember exactly.

I'd be curious to know if she is a left foot braker. If she is that might explain something...

Unfortunately for a lot of drivers they don't seem to understand that full steering lock and locked wheels isn't going to help you any. You're in a skid and doing all that just makes it worse and you are now at the mercy of your momentum.

Really what she needed to do was clutch in(assuming the stuck throttle was the real deal), unwind the wheel, unlock the brakes by curling her toes back and eyes looking where she needed to go.

Easy to say in hindsight and from an armchair isn't it?
You only have to look at someone like Sebatasien Buemi the other week when his front suspension exploded on the Toro Rosso, both wheels gone and he STILL tried to steer away from the armco.... hard to do with no front wheels or suspension wouldn't you say? I am sure he knew he had no steering or brakes, but he still tried to turn the wheel...... human nature is a funny thing.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

She said she turned full lock to the right to avoid hitting the other car......

Doesn't do a lot of good if you exceed the grip limit of the tire by doing so, from the in car cam if that other car had been in the line of the momentum it would have been creamed.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by alfacors

Easy to say in hindsight and from an armchair isn't it?
You only have to look at someone like Sebatasien Buemi the other week when his front suspension exploded on the Toro Rosso, both wheels gone and he STILL tried to steer away from the armco.... hard to do with no front wheels or suspension wouldn't you say? I am sure he knew he had no steering or brakes, but he still tried to turn the wheel...... human nature is a funny thing.

Easy to say in hindsight, well sure and certainly worth analyzing to learn from.

And no I'm not an armchair quarterback either.

Human nature is a funny thing and to correct a front tire skid(understeer), the required actions go against our nature.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Doesn't do a lot of good if you exceed the grip limit of the tire by doing so, from the in car cam if that other car had been in the line of the momentum it would have been creamed.

I'm not sure what point your trying to make.

Throttle was jammed, she steered away from the car infront, and saved him a repair bill. And it worked perfectly.......
99% of the other drivers out there WOULD have used the car in front as brakes.

Also, it happened in Australia, therefore its a tYre

[GTRMagic]

Errr.. saved what repair bill? The Harley Mini is wrecked..

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Errr.. saved what repair bill? The Harley Mini is wrecked..

The car that was in front of her. She was going to have a huge repair bill either way, but atleast she didn't cause the white mini a repair bill.....

Some main game drivers can learn from that...

[GTRMagic]

Is Mr Tetley planning on invoicing Mini for the wall?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by chavez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfRAfJ4XaFw

LOL @ 2:00. I told you water splashes were the way to go!

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Doesn't do a lot of good if you exceed the grip limit of the tire by doing so.

Closer to the point in my opinion. Modern wide, sticky tyres on stiff suspension. On many modern cars the momentum in a colision is carried upwards, and on getting sideways the grip levels can destabilise a car with a high centre of gravity. Add in the high speed corner entry and commitment to make soft race tyres work and you've created a recipe for roll-overs. If you've created the conditions then you need to review the means of arresting progress at the edges of the track. Doesn't mean you can necessarily do anything to stop it in some places, but you must consider it.

There is some irony that long run offs with gravel traps make this sort of incident more likely as well. Stick a barrier right next to the track and the first Mini would never have had the chance to start rolling. I'm not advocating doing that as it moves the danger a long way in the other direction.

Similarly, you can go the F1 way and remove the gravel, replacing it with ashphalt. First Mini would have been less likely to stop rolling, but any retardation for the second with the stuck throttle would have been removed as well, and the gravel will have slowed her down even if only a little. You also add in the problem of drivers not bothering to use the track and the incidents that result when they rejoin.

The problem with motor racing safety is there isn't one solution that works for all incidents. Solve one and you inevitably create another.

[NewsStalker]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Is Mr Tetley planning on invoicing Mini for the wall?

Since when was Davison working at QR?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

I'm not sure what point your trying to make.

Throttle was jammed, she steered away from the car infront, and saved him a repair bill. And it worked perfectly.......
99% of the other drivers out there WOULD have used the car in front as brakes.

Also, it happened in Australia, therefore its a tYre

It's quite simple, once she had lost grip and made no attempt to regain grip, she was at the mercy of her momentum. Whatever was in that path was going to get creamed. She would have had no control IF a car was in the way.

Did the throttle really jam? If it did there are some other questions there, not just with the driver.

As I said I'd like to know if she is a left foot braker.

Yes I know what country it is and if I can replace ole England scribble with new American lingo I will, especially if it irritates the locals over such trivialities.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

It's quite simple, once she had lost grip and made no attempt to regain grip, she was at the mercy of her momentum. Whatever was in that path was going to get creamed. She would have had no control IF a car was in the way.

Did the throttle really jam? If it did there are some other questions there, not just with the driver.

As I said I'd like to know if she is a left foot braker.

Yes I know what country it is and if I can replace ole England scribble with new American lingo I will, especially if it irritates the locals over such trivialities.

I'll say once again, she steered AWAY from the car (which was directly in front of her) which made sure that car wasn't apart of the inevitable crash. She didn't need to regain grip, she was going into the wall either way.....

Also, not irritated, i just love to point out when americans cant even spell properly (you speak English, not american, just fyi)

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Also, not irritated, i just love to point out when Americans cant even spell properly (you speak English, not American, just fyi)

Grammar dear Stealthy, Grammer

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

Grammar dear Stealthy, Grammer

Assuming that wasn't deliberate

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Now post up stats of all the cars that race and DONT end up in the crowd, for a good comparison

Never claimed it was every other incident of this type. The list would be many times longer.

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

Ohmygawd - this proves it then - 9 incidents in 15 years of motor racing. BAN ALL RACING IMMEDIATELY.

Get Real!

Hang on a minute - how many marshals have had their feet run over in the marshalling area in this same time? Whoops, better ban cars with tyres as well as they are dangerous to feet.

</soap box off to let others think about the ridiculous nature of calling for measures to events you cannot foresee>

It just proves they are the one I remembered. Never said the list was definitive.

You assume alot of things. I prefer circuits without high fencing.

Originally Posted by Woolley

There is some irony that long run offs with gravel traps make this sort of incident more likely as well. Stick a barrier right next to the track and the first Mini would never have had the chance to start rolling. I'm not advocating doing that as it moves the danger a long way in the other direction.

Mr Winrow had a go at proving you wrong a few years ago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6W6SZzTmqs

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

I'll say once again, she steered AWAY from the car (which was directly in front of her) which made sure that car wasn't apart of the inevitable crash. She didn't need to regain grip, she was going into the wall either way.....

Also, not irritated, i just love to point out when americans cant even spell properly (you speak English, not american, just fyi)

I disagree based on my experience. She did need to attempt to regain grip and mostly likely not lost it to begin with. If I had taken that give up approach to things I would have been in some big accidents lately(me riding with students).

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Woolley

The problem with motor racing safety is there isn't one solution that works for all incidents. Solve one and you inevitably create another.

I am dealing with this exact circumstance right now with one of my clients I work at. It's a brand new private track and much discussion has been made recently about risk management and figuring out the best way to go about things. There are so many ifs and buts it's incredible.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I disagree based on my experience. She did need to attempt to regain grip and mostly likely not lost it to begin with. If I had taken that give up approach to things I would have been in some big accidents lately(me riding with students).

What did she need to retain grip for? The car was going into the wall, thats a given. There was a car infront of her, that she avoided perfectly. End of story i would have thought....


Have you been in a car with a stuck throttle? (And i'm not saying thats what her problem was, but thats what is being reported as).

I have been a driver, and both a passenger, in cars that the throttles have jammed on (although not in a track situation). Even on the street at slow speed, there isn't alot of time to react.....And if the wheels are spinning, thats what they'll continue to do.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Mr Winrow had a go at proving you wrong a few years ago

Yeah, well, you can't legislate for Clios.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

I have been a driver, and both a passenger, in cars that the throttles have jammed on

Trusting you weren't the machanic on said vehicles...