Classic Sports Car Club - Special Saloons

[chunterer]

Mallory's got to stay the place has an atmosphere all of it's own and it's where the classic series started. It's pretty central for most folk I would think and it's ideal for milling around in the Paddock in between races.
Thruxton would be better than Combe I reckon?

[David Stallard]

Originally Posted by DanMinton

Rob...is your Imp Pat Manion's old car, i spotted an original Wendy Wools sticker ?

Cheers Dan

Well spotted on the sticker - I had to go back and check



.DAVID.

[Moby]

I've missed the whole year as well but will be out there next season.

I would like to see Brands, Silverstone, Oulton, Snetterton and Mallory, (as chunterer says, because thats the spiritual home). The other 4 give a good geographical spread for both competitors and spectators, they have the full array of circuit configurations and they all have good well maintained facilities.

I don't mind on the class structure as my car will be in Class 'A'. I would like to see the races remain as one and not split them, its great to see the smaller nimble specials on track with the big flame belchers, for the spectator it makes for great viewing.

With regard the length of races, you have to remember how close to the edge many of these cars are running, they are fragile and if run too long many will fail and then may not be able to run in the second race, or alternatively will hold back on the car to make it last two races. Maybe 20 mins(x2) would at least give parity in terms of track time with the rest of the CSCC series, but 2x15 is not far off the mark for this type of machinery.

All in all I think its fantastic, I have been an advocate of this type of series since I was on the committee many moons ago and I'm so pleased the club has taken this step. I just can't wait to get on track next year when the car will be ready and hopefully my health will be better.

Well done to all, although I'm a terrible spectator I can't wait for Donington.

[Si Frowen]

Originally Posted by David Stallard

Well spotted on the sticker - I had to go back and check



.DAVID.

That's never original - nor is mine



See here for all manner of cool stickers:

http://www.isaydingdong.co.uk/oursho...ndy-Wools.html

I got them to change mine to read '1987' as I know the car was out then...

[pete21]

A big thank you to the cscc & Andy for putting this together. However I do think we would get more interest if we had special & modified classes (sports & saloons) as the good old days used to be. I also think we need to asses whether we are going to be a revival series / championship or are we going to continue in format that we are running at the moment. My personal view is we should run it as a revival if it could of run in the day ( in this case 1993) then it can run now.I raced back then full grids! A lot of other date related revival races are very well supported . If you are going to let more modern engines/ gearboxes in then you have to leave it fully open, there are many other cars out there with engines that are not being aloud to run with us. I do feel the series will become inconsistent because of this & that is not good for the organising club or the series. I personally feel if the cut off date is 1993 then that should be it across the board no other way! Your thoughts please.

[Sodemo]

Hi,

Is there a timetable published yet for the Donington rounds coming up?

[ag shrigley imp]

Theres 2 lots of conversations going with regards the series. One on here and one on the special saloon forum.

I think one of the main aims should be to find someone who wants to assist Andy as a PR person. We really need to have someone who has a real passion and preferabely some knowledge about the cars and someone who isnt just interested in winning and competing. Someone with a real love for the job of promoting what we have to offer.

Just touching on the classes. what about upto 1300cc class, 1301 to 1600 or 2000/ 2100cc. 2100 to unlimited.

Im honestly not sure about what ran back in the day, I dont know if it was all spaceframes, semi spaceframe or some steel bodied. If so what was the catogories of the cars if any.

Maybe you just race in the above format with whatever car, but it went by the cc of the car. Nt sure on that.

Touching on cars,The spitfire for instance has an engine which only came out back in 1999, I have no issues with the car racing at all but where do we draw a line.

I think one of the spaceframes is running a Millington power unit, ( not 100% sure) but how does that work.

Then someone mentioned about a cossie sierra racing, Being honest i dont see how thats gonna work but once again I think we have to look at all issues after all we are trying to build a series here with some history and period.

plenty to think about

[Moby]

Excuse me, where would I find the Special Saloons Forum?

[DanMinton]

Originally Posted by pete21

A big thank you to the cscc & Andy for putting this together. However I do think we would get more interest if we had special & modified classes (sports & saloons) as the good old days used to be. I also think we need to asses whether we are going to be a revival series / championship or are we going to continue in format that we are running at the moment. My personal view is we should run it as a revival if it could of run in the day ( in this case 1993) then it can run now.I raced back then full grids! A lot of other date related revival races are very well supported . If you are going to let more modern engines/ gearboxes in then you have to leave it fully open, there are many other cars out there with engines that are not being aloud to run with us. I do feel the series will become inconsistent because of this & that is not good for the organising club or the series. I personally feel if the cut off date is 1993 then that should be it across the board no other way! Your thoughts please.

Agree..

[pete21]

Originally Posted by Moby

Excuse me, where would I find the Special Saloons Forum?

http://www.specialsaloons.proboards....ead=113&page=1

Try that

[leecostelloracing]

I adore andys passion for theses cars an highly respect his knoledge now as person who is on same wave length as me I also eat sleep an breath these cars so much my kids called our rabbit baby bertha haha my point is
If I can help the big fella in anyway I will
As I know we can get this series untouchable
By any other An enjoyable we can be like the dream team the cscc special saloons has an amazing set of fellas an followers so far
The cscc special saloon forum gets 3 members a week on average some enthusiasts an some fellow racers from other series
Ill be at donington anyway I hope andy is too specialy after the flywheel problem hope its sorted
we can chat then perhaps or anyone else all speak of ideas an so on in person

[Moby]

Thanks Pete21

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by ag shrigley imp

Theres 2 lots of conversations going with regards the series. One on here and one on the special saloon forum.

Just touching on the classes. what about upto 1300cc class, 1301 to 1600 or 2000/ 2100cc. 2100 to unlimited.

Im honestly not sure about what ran back in the day, I dont know if it was all spaceframes, semi spaceframe or some steel bodied. If so what was the catogories of the cars if any.

plenty to think about

Special Saloons of the late 60s to mid 70s period tended to have class breaks at 850cc, 1000cc, 1300cc and over 1300cc. When the SuperSaloon series originated in or around 1974/5 there was just the one class and it was rare for any car under 1600cc to run in these races. A 1600 Lotus engined Anglia ran in the same class as the 7.6 litre Chevvy Corvair. At the beginning there was an award for the best 2 litre car.

The steel body/semi space frame/ full spaceframe topic has been well covered in the Special/Super Saloon threads here on 10 Tenths.

[Al Weyman]

With respect don't you have a bit of a problem with this series? I mean when is the cut off date and does that include components incuding injection and engine managment systems and computers that wouldnt have been around in period, later engines, transmissions etc. fitted to the cars as it doesnt seem to and I think this will be the series achillies heel.

[Stacy]

Al,

From what I saw I don't think they do. The regs are clear and support 2wd with a cut off of pre93 which would allow in engine management, turbos and sequential 'boxes without electronic trickery. It was a nice balance.

The premise seems to be agricultural performance, sideways action and a good mix of cars through the period. The pace was also quick without being unattainable for most people within the rules if they chose to apply themselves.

With the addition of space frame cars it represented the spirit of what Classic Thunder was trying to achieve before it became less Classic.

The only trick I thought was being missed is where the regs allow cars such as early Super Tourers and Sierra Cosworths etc - to my eyes anyway - and they would do well too. While everyone wants to support their own cause and some may object, there's a rich vein of untapped potential entrants there.

That said grids were pretty good and the paddock was a pleasant place to be. So much so that Mrs Vickers may be coming to a race meeting since refusing to come to any more some years ago.

In terms of Andys questions I thought the race format was about right, the regs are about right, and the pace was about right.

It might be worth having classes for specials/steel and circuits are always important; Combe is a long way to park up on muddy grass with no hook ups for example, but Donington and Oulton are great. Restrictions at Oulton make that hard however.

In summary there's not a lot wrong, I think it just needs a wider entrant base and the usual good circuits and it would do very well. All credit to Andy for making it happen.

S.
Ps keep the rolling starts - they are so much better, maybe some need more practice though as Mallory race 1 from the back was indeed a debacle. I was about half a lap down going over the line.. How much of that was Joss confusing things by facing the wrong way I've no idea tho.

[oneofapair]

The 1150cc class was I think primarily a Modsports way of making the baby class more attractive to a wider variety of smaller engine car.Namely a 1048 Sprite or Midget could run a Formula Junior spec BMC "A" series engine bored to give close to class limit along with stretched Imp engined sports cars. It may well help boost entry levels attracting more competitors into the smaller class, which could possibly include Minis with the same spec "A" series engines.
If I remember correctly, when the cscc suggested running this type of race series its title covered the areas of "Modsports, Special saloon, Donington special gt cars ,plus a couple more "types" of the period .So potentially an extremely varied and interesting collection.
The reaction listening to people in the public enclosures at the mallory meeting, as I walked back towards the paddock was very positive with one bunch of "old" mates reminiscing about seeing the vehicles in period and that how good it was to see them again. So the basic ingredients are there,here's hoping.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by ag shrigley imp

I think one of the main aims should be to find someone who wants to assist Andy as a PR person. We really need to have someone who has a real passion and preferabely some knowledge about the cars and someone who isnt just interested in winning and competing. Someone with a real love for the job of promoting what we have to offer.....

....Im honestly not sure about what ran back in the day, I dont know if it was all spaceframes, semi spaceframe or some steel bodied. If so what was the catogories of the cars if any.

Maybe you just race in the above format with whatever car, but it went by the cc of the car. Nt sure on that....

.....Then someone mentioned about a cossie sierra racing, Being honest i dont see how thats gonna work but once again I think we have to look at all issues after all we are trying to build a series here with some history and period.

Remember this series is a CSCC series and so Andy has the whole of the CSCC Committee to help him, inc me and I did a fair bit of the PR work before Andy came on board. We all want the series to succeed and grow and we are all there to help. Andy has masses of knowledge and contacts, far more than the rst of us put together, but he can call on the CSCC office and other committee members to help. That said, if anyone on here wants to volunteer to help then I'm sure that offer will be grasped kindly and firmly!

As for the issue of Cossie Sierras etc, remember that this series is actually for Special & Super Saloons, Modsports and Thundersaloons together. Its very difficult to have regs that reflect that mix, especially when the CSCC philosophy is to keep things simple and avoid complicated regs that need close policing. This is club level racing, lets just get out there and race.

[pete21]

Originally Posted by andy97

Remember this series is a CSCC series and so Andy has the whole of the CSCC Committee to help him, inc me and I did a fair bit of the PR work before Andy came on board. We all want the series to succeed and grow and we are all there to help. Andy has masses of knowledge and contacts, far more than the rst of us put together, but he can call on the CSCC office and other committee members to help. That said, if anyone on here wants to volunteer to help then I'm sure that offer will be grasped kindly and firmly!

As for the issue of Cossie Sierras etc, remember that this series is actually for Special & Super Saloons, Modsports and Thundersaloons together. Its very difficult to have regs that reflect that mix, especially when the CSCC philosophy is to keep things simple and avoid complicated regs that need close policing. This is club level racing, lets just get out there and race.

If you won't to keep it simple & easy to police then it can only go one way! Pre 93 across the whole board. There is no other way you can not have one engine is being alowed to be used & another is not. That is totally unethical it will be the ruin of the series. If its a classic series then that's what it has to be end of!

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by andy97

As for the issue of Cossie Sierras etc, remember that this series is actually for Special & Super Saloons, Modsports and Thundersaloons together. Its very difficult to have regs that reflect that mix, especially when the CSCC philosophy is to keep things simple and avoid complicated regs that need close policing. This is club level racing, lets just get out there and race.

Andy,

You already have the regs..

S.

[big andy]

Originally Posted by pete21

If you won't to keep it simple & easy to police then it can only go one way! Pre 93 across the whole board. There is no other way you can not have one engine is being alowed to be used & another is not. That is totally unethical it will be the ruin of the series. If its a classic series then that's what it has to be end of!

its quite simple the car has to be pre 93, engines are free .there is no advantage from running a newer engine other than to keep cost down .you have the most powerful 2lt on the grid pete by a good margin .nobody is getting a advantage from using a newer engine !!!!

to police pre 93 across the board were do we stop !! suspension? ecu s? wheels /tyres it goes on and on . that's why we have written the regs to inc as many cars as possible and to keep it simple . we are turning on average 3 cars a week away as there do not fit with what we are trying to achieve

[pete21]

Originally Posted by big andy

its quite simple the car has to be pre 93, engines are free .there is no advantage from running a newer engine other than to keep cost down .you have the most powerful 2lt on the grid pete by a good margin .nobody is getting a advantage from using a newer engine !!!!

to police pre 93 across the board were do we stop !! suspension? ecu s? wheels /tyres it goes on and on . that's why we have written the regs to inc as many cars as possible and to keep it simple . we are turning on average 3 cars a week away as there do not fit with what we are trying to achieve

Andy you are missing the point! It has nothing to do with the engine in the car that I drive. If you listen to some of the other competitors they feel the same ,if it could of run back in the day 1993 then it can run now. You can not play god by not allowing some to cars race, when you let others race who could not of raced in 93 it is wrong ! There is a car running that would never been alowed to race due to the old regs but if someone comes along with a space framed imp with a hyabusa in the back you won't let them race because the engine is to modern ( your words I'm afraid) What's the difference when you let other cars with modern engines? There is no consistency . I have been involved in special saloon racing for such a long time now and I am very pleased to see it reviving again but you can Not have 1 rule for 1,& 1 rule for another which is what we have at the minuet which is my point .NOT that 2 cars that run modern engines happen to be in my class . To make this series grow you can not carry on like this my friend you & the organising club CSCC will loose credibility I have seen it before & that is not what we want. Both you and the club have done a great job getting this off the ground but next year it has to be fair to any competitor that wants to race with us!! That's what I am saying.

[pete21]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

With respect don't you have a bit of a problem with this series? I mean when is the cut off date and does that include components incuding injection and engine managment systems and computers that wouldnt have been around in period, later engines, transmissions etc. fitted to the cars as it doesnt seem to and I think this will be the series achillies heel.

Al this is my point we have to keep it real ,across the board. If you run in a pre year series or championship then that's what it has to be. The only thing that can be out of that date window should be for safety sake or tyres that may not be manufactured any longer not engines or gearbox's it is a great club to race with . They don't seem to do this with any other championship.!!!

[Stacy]

It's easy to find yourself waving a set of regulations around an empty paddock though isn't it?

As I said, I think Andy has done pretty well so far with pre93 2wd and free engines. There is I believe latent demand for that, and I dont think the vast majority care two hoots if someone has dropped in a later motor. The spectators even less.

My opinion is that I don't see much wrong with either the Hyabusa Imp or Cossies, a good series of this type makes its own history soon enough, but as I'm not investing my time as Andy and the CSCC are it seems churlish to bang the drum once you've said your piece. It's easy to be consumed by something that in the real world doesn't really matter.

Anyway, nice one Al. See you havent lost your touch.. ;-)

S.

[Gerry Taylor]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Mallory's got to stay the place has an atmosphere all of it's own and it's where the classic series started. It's pretty central for most folk I would think and it's ideal for milling around in the Paddock in between races.
Thruxton would be better than Combe I reckon?

Totally agree. It was where it all came together, and it really is a great viewing circuit.

[Gerry Taylor]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Special Saloons of the late 60s to mid 70s period tended to have class breaks at 850cc, 1000cc, 1300cc and over 1300cc. When the SuperSaloon series originated in or around 1974/5 there was just the one class and it was rare for any car under 1600cc to run in these races. A 1600 Lotus engined Anglia ran in the same class as the 7.6 litre Chevvy Corvair. At the beginning there was an award for the best 2 litre car.

The steel body/semi space frame/ full spaceframe topic has been well covered in the Special/Super Saloon threads here on 10 Tenths.

Absolutely correct.You beat me to it matey.