Massa Who?

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by bella

when drivers are operating at a very high level of brain activity (or very low level, i think it depends who you are and how you drive), the tiniest imbalance can make a big difference. so it could be a teeny tiny damaged bit of brain

to put that into context and simplify it, Maldonado is the pure take action, no consequences driver. he doesn't even react to subtle visual stimuli (how he's so effective at Monaco - he knows where the apex is and hits it every time, regardless of visually there being a barrier in the way before it becomes visible, for example). you and me would be at the opposite end of the scale in our first laps in a f1 car - we would react to *everything*, visual, noise and touch, as well as subconscious triggers. on the sliding scale felipe perhaps is edging closer to us than maldonado, whereas in 2008 he would have been closer to pastor's extreme.

I think those are very good points Bella. I was led to believe that Massa had a small brain injury (is that not confirmed?). This could therefore have a tiny effect, although it is clear that his motivation/confidence has taken a dent after Hockenheim 2010. This combined could lead him to no longer reach for his previous best performances. Look at Schumacher. He's probably not quite as quick as he was and I'm sure his brain is still very sharp; perhaps though over 40, these things get that bit tougher, and given how competitive F1 is now, it's showing in his performances relative to other drivers.

An excellent point about Maldonado and the barriers. You have to believe you're going to hit the apex and not the barrier at Monaco. You aim for the apex as usual and ignore the walls (some are better at this than others). Many non-F1 drivers given a chance would naturally want to start turning a bit later or with a bit less wheel rotation so as not to clip the barrier on the inside and they would then compensate for any late turning and the risk of hitting a barrier on the outside by going through slower to balance this out.

[johnny99]

Very true Bella. I know a guy, not a racer, who got hit severly on the forehead area, but not as severe as Massa. To all who know him, he's 100%, but he admits that concentration and focus on a job is very difficult even with mild medication. I can only imagine what it's like in an F1 car. It's a shame, I've always liked Massa and it's tough watching him at the moment.

John

[bella]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

An excellent point about Maldonado and the barriers. You have to believe you're going to hit the apex and not the barrier at Monaco. You aim for the apex as usual and ignore the walls (some are better at this than others). Many non-F1 drivers given a chance would naturally want to start turning a bit later or with a bit less wheel rotation so as not to clip the barrier on the inside and they would then compensate for any late turning and the risk of hitting a barrier on the outside by going through slower to balance this out.

apparently (so i'm told) it's a reaction with almost everyone, f1 or otherwise. the lines the wavy bits of the barriers form suck you into them, but at the same time your eyes see that you're going to hit the barrier so it trips into safety mode and you don't make as tight a turn as you want to. if you watch nearly everyone, f1 or otherwise on the onboards then you'll see even the guys who normally do just one steering action (input?) making tiny adjustments as they catch sight of the apex and their minds let them do it. it's almost impossible to do a 100% lap of monaco, where a driver takes the car as fast as it'll go. maldonado is the closest because he doesn't react to the fact that the barriers are telling him to act differently, he just *does* it. on that basis i'd say he responds far less to visual stimuli compared to what he feels.

i have no idea where that leaves massa, and i'm certainly no doctor to be able to suggest what's up with him but it'll be interesting to see where he is at monaco versus alonso.

[Javi]

There are cases of drivers who, after a big accident have lost "that bit" that makes them special. Wendlinger, for example, was a really quick guy, on Frentzen´s level, but after his monaco 1994 accident he lost his raw speed (on F1 at least). We are talking miliseconds every corner, but that sums up to being off the pace. Altough Massa´s 2010 start was encouraging (pole at Bahrein), he slowly flattered to deceive since then... I really wish he wakes up. In his good times the guy was really fast...

[safc_fan89]

It could be just down to the characteristics of the car as much as anything. The general consensus is that the 2011 and 2012 Ferraris have not been easy to drive, and Alonso is driving very well. He's a double world champion so you would expect him to beat Massa.

I don't necessarily think this explains the large gap but I doubt he'd be as far off the pace in a better-handling car. Since he did have some good performances in 2010 that would suggest the performance gap to Alonso is not simply an after-effect of the accident.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Javi

There are cases of drivers who, after a big accident have lost "that bit" that makes them special. Wendlinger, for example, was a really quick guy, on Frentzen´s level, but after his monaco 1994 accident he lost his raw speed (on F1 at least). We are talking miliseconds every corner, but that sums up to being off the pace. Altough Massa´s 2010 start was encouraging (pole at Bahrein), he slowly flattered to deceive since then... I really wish he wakes up. In his good times the guy was really fast...

Yes, JJ Lehto was another (although I think the main reason for his form drop was because he got shafted by Flav)

There was a guy in F3000, years back (who Maldonado reminds me of now) mercurial and just foot to the floor, 'Alfie' Vinuesa? He was super quick, then suffered a massive shunt at Spa and was never the same afterwards. He could have made it to F1 easily of not for that.

[JohnSSC]

Some interesting amatuer psychology here. Unfortuantely, without actually being able to evaluate the subject directly it remains speculation.

The bottom line for Massa is that he is not performing and it is a performance-based business. At the end of the day, whatever decision Ferrari make will be based on that.

[chunterer]

Yes John that is the bottom line. We all have drivers we like and support and believe we know what might be going on behind the scenes, but like you say if the driver's not getting the results expected then his team must look to change things. There's no room for water carriers these days, too much pressure and expectations.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by p-matt

I think it's much less to do with Hungary '09 and much more to do with Hockenheim '10, and the fact that the team is so obviously orientated around Fernando.

Hockenheim certainly didn't help and would have bruised his ego but he never quite seemed the same at the beginning of the 2010 season.

[chunterer]

He most certainly was strong in Bahrain, then mysteriously went missing until Germany.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chunterer

He most certainly was strong in Bahrain, then mysteriously went missing until Germany.

Indeed I stand corrected; forgot about Bahrain, otherwise off the radar until Germany.

[Flat Out Farr]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

In conclusion, this topic could have been posted on any race over the past 2 years, other than this one, and people would have agreed

He had a good race in a crap car.

Selby

Comments by other forum users tend to reflect my own feelings:-

1] yet again another mediocre Ferrari
2] The accident has had a bigger effect on Massa than I think he is admitting
3] other teams have upped the ante (excellent news) and this means that the big teams aren't walking away with top 3 positions
4] as much as i am not an Alonso fan, I cannot dispute the fact that he is a good driver, and he is punching his weight much further up the grid with the 2012 car than most people would.

Before Ferrari dump Massa, give him a half decent car first !!

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by Flat Out Farr

Comments by other forum users tend to reflect my own feelings:-

1] yet again another mediocre Ferrari
2] The accident has had a bigger effect on Massa than I think he is admitting
3] other teams have upped the ante (excellent news) and this means that the big teams aren't walking away with top 3 positions
4] as much as i am not an Alonso fan, I cannot dispute the fact that he is a good driver, and he is punching his weight much further up the grid with the 2012 car than most people would.

Before Ferrari dump Massa, give him a half decent car first !!

Ferrari's 0.8-1sec off the pace is just a bunch of **** imo. Alonso and Perez completely dominated the field at Malaysia, and apart from Maldonado and Lotus he would have dominated Spain as well. They might be a bit off in quali's, and Massa is having issues, but Alonso's been fairly dominant in 2/5 races, at least in comparison to Red Bull and Mclaren in those 2 races. Hell McLaren were on the verge of going a lap down at Spain.

Red Bull and McLaren have been fast, but they haven't dominated any races well ahead of their other contenders. Well, I suppose Vettel only had the Lotus' to contend with at Bahrain but Red Bull hasn't shown such strong pace anywhere else this year.

Sure the Ferrari isn't the fastest car and Alonso drove 2 great races this year, but it's hard to tell the true pace of the car when you don't have a proper teammate to measure yourself against.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Sure the Ferrari isn't the fastest car and Alonso drove 2 great races this year, but it's hard to tell the true pace of the car when you don't have a proper teammate to measure yourself against.

I agree. I think we'd all agree that Felipe isn't upto Fernando's standard, but if Fernando is finishing 3rd, Massa should be up in 6th minimum.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Flat Out Farr

Comments by other forum users tend to reflect my own feelings:-

1] yet again another mediocre Ferrari
2] The accident has had a bigger effect on Massa than I think he is admitting
3] other teams have upped the ante (excellent news) and this means that the big teams aren't walking away with top 3 positions
4] as much as i am not an Alonso fan, I cannot dispute the fact that he is a good driver, and he is punching his weight much further up the grid with the 2012 car than most people would.

Before Ferrari dump Massa, give him a half decent car first !!

Erm, i'm not sure you saw my other Massa related posts

I said, for that race, he did a good drive in a not so good car.

Apart from that? Not so good at all. I can't justify him being alongside someone that's driving the car beyond its capabilities.

You gotta let a young gun have a shot.

Selby

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

You gotta let a young gun have a shot.

Selby

Massa's 31, though having said that Alonso is 30 but he's producing the results.

[wolfhound]

Montezemolo has said that everybody at Ferrari must work hard to bring home the results including Massa.

http://www.pitpass.com/46337-Monteze...-our-own-hards

[Mr V]

It says in that letter that Luca wrote to the team with the aim of keeping morale up, but i should imagine that the one persons who plummeted would have been Felipe's.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Montezemolo has said that everybody at Ferrari must work hard to bring home the results including Massa.

http://www.pitpass.com/46337-Monteze...-our-own-hards

It's done, he's gone.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Not yet. But if Alonso gets another podium in Monaco and Felipe is once more a non-factor, well, then he ought to be worried.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Bononi

It's done, he's gone.

Yes....

[Paradise City]

He'll soon be replaced and his replacement -whoever he is - won't do much better.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

He'll soon be replaced and his replacement -whoever he is - won't do much better.

Yes I think that Alonso has that "Stoner and Ducati" thing ! but I hope I'm wrong !

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

He'll soon be replaced and his replacement -whoever he is - won't do much better.

I have to agree on that one.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Massa's 31, though having said that Alonso is 30 but he's producing the results.

That's why i'm suggesting Ferrari should replace Massa and not Alonso

Selby