[Rules] 2022 and beyond... What will be the impact of the new regulations?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

There are 20+ Carrera Cup Porsches at most Grand Prix meetings...?

Who are not nearly the quality of the GP drivers, and it shows.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The idea that skill driving an open wheeler translates to driving a production-based sportscar, in a competition of tenths, is not exactly iron-clad though. You might find that Latifi is the best driver in Porsches, so what would that prove about driving a Grand Prix car...?

The good generally rise to the top in equal competition and it would at least allow somebody like Latifi to showcase his talents in equal machinery and reward his team with some extra points for employing a talented youngster.

Clark, Stewart, Peterson, Lauda, Stuck, Beltoise, Ickx, Amon, Scheckter, Beltoise, Pescarolo and others were hugely talented touring /sports car drivers.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

Clark, Stewart, Peterson, Lauda, Stuck, Beltoise, Ickx, Amon and others were hugely talented touring car drivers.

They were, and im not diminishing their talents, however we live in different times. Their competition was mostly gentlemen drivers, ametuers in terms of teams and drivers.

I suspect F1 drivers would have a much harder time adapting and beating seasoned sportscar and touring car drivers these days.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

The good generally rise to the top in equal competition and it would at least allow somebody like Latifi to showcase his talents in equal machinery and reward his team with some extra points for employing a talented youngster.

Dont we have this in Junior categories, F3, F2......thats why the cream rise to the top and showcase their talent so that they get the best seats in F1?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Unfortunately has never happened, nor will ever happen.

The closest thing we have is probably Indycar, and even with a spec chassis, theres lots of differences with damper development, teams, engineers, budgets etc.

You will still end up having the best drivers, in the best cars, with the best engineers and biggest budget.

More often than not the car and engineering team makes the initial difference in any series, the driver is usually a relatively cheep but important component in the equation to ensure that engineering investment doesnt go to waste.

That is why I suggested a W-series type approach to the cars and engineering,

Penske arranged the IROC series to this type of formula.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

It is a loophole because in a formula that is allegedly trying to cut costs, the stupendously expensive PUs introduced by the manufacturers, are outside the cost cap, and are now being changed by the manufacturer teams to gain a significant performance advantage over other teams who cannot afford to indulge in this luxury.

For my 2 cents worth, I think that the cost of the PUs should be limited to $100 000 dollars each, should be allocated to the teams by the FIA out of a stock held by the FIA, and anybody should be free to use as many as they like during the season - within the cost cap.

Not sure i get this loophole thing, its either within the rules or not....no such thing as a loophole in reality.

In terms of manufacturer money gaining an advantage over small teams...this has been the way since racing began.Theres been over 170 teams in F1, i suspect most that arent here any more are for financial reasons...

In terms of cost, i fear youre a bit out....

....Even in Indycar engines cost over 10 times what youre proposing, an LMP2 engine lease cost £1250 an hour, cars run for circa 150 hours a season so thats around 200k a year.

I understand your point, but this sport costs a lot....id certainly agree that the current engine regs and costs are ludicrous however how many engine manufacturers would sign up to a pooled engine idea without the idea of road relevant technology from an advertisment point of view?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

That is why I suggested a W-series type approach to the cars and engineering,

Penske arranged the IROC series to this type of formula.

And if one of the drivers got injured in the saturday one make race, meaning they couldnt take part in the Grand Prix?

Im struggling to see how this

a) would actually work with teams allowing it to happen
b) how trundling around in f3 style cars would add anything to the series since drivers have spent years progressing through that formula to prove that they are capable of getting into f1.

Just not sure i see the benefit tbh. We saw this year how teams can get close on track, how good the racing can be in different machinery.

Get the rules right and theres no need for gimmicks.

[chillibowl]

in fairness, a saturday injury is always a risk with any race weekend format.

but also agree with you because i just dont think anyone wants to risk an injury in a car that is not as safe as an F1 car is.

as you say, what would be the point?

Originally Posted by wnut

Would be nice to see the world's top drivers in a series where
the car was not the be all and end all.

would it though?

F1 is bespoke with highly specialized drivers....you take away that combination and the results may be less satisfying then seeing them competing a sprint race in F1 cars.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

One new sporting regulation is to reduce the weekend to 3 days by removing Media day Thursday.

The regulated maximum 2 hour media window will now be on the Friday morning pushing FP 1 back to nearer lunchtime with FP2 later into the afternoon (European race weekend timings).

Also Monaco is to be a Friday -Saturday-Sunday event fitting into the above mentioned timeframes

Source : skysports.com

[Greem]

The schedule changes look like impacting on us orange lot in the UK quite heavily. Race day has always been a dumb o'clock start (on post at 7am, radio collection from 5.45am) but it looks like all three days will likely be a 12 hour shift now. That's a pretty big ask.

[Adam43]

That is a big ask. I guess for that event they won’t struggle to get people, but crikey!

Will they have shifts? How does it work.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

Who are not nearly the quality of the GP drivers, and it shows.

The suggestion was the F1 drivers would drive the Carrera Cup cars.

Originally Posted by wnut

Clark, Stewart, Peterson, Lauda, Stuck, Beltoise, Ickx, Amon, Scheckter, Beltoise, Pescarolo and others were hugely talented touring /sports car drivers.

Conversely, Sir Jack Brabham and Alan Jones had little success in touring car racing.

Conversely, Formula One also-rans can be multiple touring car champions. I think it is complicated to say the least!

[wnut]

Oh, okay I read it as there was already RSR racing at the GP, not the cars
were available.

Maybe some of the fancied won't do all that well, all the better.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Conversely, Sir Jack Brabham and Alan Jones had little success in touring car racing.

Sir Jack Brabham won races in the British Saloon Car Championship as it was called. It wasn't just Clark who was handy with those things

[wnut]

Alan Jones is being misrepresented too:

1978 CanAm Champ
1980 2nd in BMW Procar Championship
1982 Australian GT Champ in a Porsche
1988 2nd in Pacific Touring Car Championship
1993 2nd in Australian Touring Car Championship

So not unaccomplished or disgraced.

Add Gabrielle Tarquini and Mario Andretti, Scheckter, Hulme, Amon, and McLaren to the list of accomplished F1 touring car drivers.

[Mike Harte]

There have been countless F1 drivers in other disciplines over the years.

Just some of them to add to the list would be Graham Hill, Vic Elford, Frank Gardner, Jackie Oliver and David Hobbs, plus many, many more.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by wnut

Alan Jones is being misrepresented too:

1978 CanAm Champ
1980 2nd in BMW Procar Championship
1982 Australian GT Champ in a Porsche
1988 2nd in Pacific Touring Car Championship
1993 2nd in Australian Touring Car Championship

So not unaccomplished or disgraced.

Add Gabrielle Tarquini and Mario Andretti, Scheckter, Hulme, Amon, and McLaren to the list of accomplished F1 touring car drivers.

And a bloke called Clark did ok in the BSCC in 1964.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by E.B

And a bloke called Clark did ok in the BSCC in 1964.

Proving a top F1 driver is a top racing driver, if not, they should not be in F1.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Mod: Lets try and bring this thread back to the title subject please

[Tourer]

Article here about the potential impact of the engine freeze.
I understand why measures such as development freezes are introduced, particularly from a cost point of view but the last time we had an engine freeze (when hybrid engines first introduced) it led to a very uneven playing field. The problem is that it enshrines a potentially unbalanced status quo and doesn't allow any catch-up from those not quite on the pace.

Hopefully that doesn't happen (again) this time and we have a number of competitive powerplants and teams - or at the very least, if it does happen again, it's a different manufacturer / team than last time (nothing against MB but they've had a fair crack).

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Article here about the potential impact of the engine freeze.
I understand why measures such as development freezes are introduced, particularly from a cost point of view but the last time we had an engine freeze (when hybrid engines first introduced) it led to a very uneven playing field. The problem is that it enshrines a potentially unbalanced status quo and doesn't allow any catch-up from those not quite on the pace.

Hopefully that doesn't happen (again) this time and we have a number of competitive powerplants and teams - or at the very least, if it does happen again, it's a different manufacturer / team than last time (nothing against MB but they've had a fair crack).

I don't think that article touches upon a dumb thing they did just prior to the freeze and that is the change in the fuel formulation. They are moving to E10 in 2022. They should have waited until 2026 instead. But now they have to adjust just prior the the freeze. I hope that doesn't screw someone.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I don't think that article touches upon a dumb thing they did just prior to the freeze and that is the change in the fuel formulation. They are moving to E10 in 2022. They should have waited until 2026 instead. But now they have to adjust just prior the the freeze. I hope that doesn't screw someone.

Richard

Exactly - that's a big part of where my concern lies. Hopefully we don't see a runaway "top dog" but a fairly even performance comparison. Either could happen though and it appears that there's no obvious remedy for someone that needs to catch up.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I don't think that article touches upon a dumb thing they did just prior to the freeze and that is the change in the fuel formulation. They are moving to E10 in 2022. They should have waited until 2026 instead. But now they have to adjust just prior the the freeze. I hope that doesn't screw someone.

Richard

I am not sure if I am reading this right.
If you read the fuel specs year to year, nothing has changed it would appear that the fuels contain this percentage of alcohol as they are formulated and the regulations are just stating the 10% alcohol content that is currently part of the formulation, and making sure it is sourced from a sustainable source. So ultimately the fuel is exactly the same as it was in 2021. ???

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2020-12-16.pdf

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2021-10-15.pdf

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

I am not sure if I am reading this right.
If you read the fuel specs year to year, nothing has changed it would appear that the fuels contain this percentage of alcohol as they are formulated and the regulations are just stating the 10% alcohol content that is currently part of the formulation, and making sure it is sourced from a sustainable source. So ultimately the fuel is exactly the same as it was in 2021. ???

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2020-12-16.pdf

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2021-10-15.pdf

They increased the percentage of bio from 5.75 to 10%. So all fuels had to be reformulated. With corresponding development on the engines.

Its not easy to find in the regulations. Look at 19.4.4 in old (5.75%) and 16.4.4 in new (10%). I don't know if it means anything, but old rules just say "bio components" while new specify sustainable bio ethanol.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

They increased the percentage of bio from 5.75 to 10%. So all fuels had to be reformulated. With corresponding development on the engines.

Its not easy to find in the regulations. Look at 19.4.4 in old (5.75%) and 16.4.4 in new (10%). I don't know if it means anything, but old rules just say "bio components" while new specify sustainable bio ethanol.

Richard

My reading of the fuel specs; not being an industrial chemist; looked like the fuel already included 10% ethanol and they had just updated the regs to include that happy fact, because nothing else seems to have changed at all, hence it will not effect engine performance.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

My reading of the fuel specs; not being an industrial chemist; looked like the fuel already included 10% ethanol and they had just updated the regs to include that happy fact, because nothing else seems to have changed at all, hence it will not effect engine performance.

The regulations have clearly changed (see locations I pointed out) and you can find any number of articles online about it. Here is just one example.

https://f1i.com/news/431191-honda-re...difficult.html

The implications here is that to extract all the power you can, lubricant and fuel formulations are highly optimized for each power unit. While the regulations keep them from being particularly exotic, they is still plenty of room for development. With fuel supplier working closely with the power unit teams. The ICE part of the power unit is all about combustion efficiency and friction reduction. I believe they have been working for years with a relatively stable set of regulations on lubricant and fuel. With the biggest change semi recently was the clarifications around not burning lubricants. So whatever optimizations they have implemented over the past few years needs to be examined/revalidated at best and changed at worst. It's not like the have to start over again, but it is significant and all power unit suppliers may not recover equally. 2022 power unit rankings and performance deltas may not be the same as they were at end of 2021. I don't know if the adjustments are limited to fuel mapping (which is complex) or may even extend to physical changes (if that is even allowed with the freeze)

Richard