Prost or Senna?

[Ginetta]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

I would say both men are relatively on par. Both men employ very different methods to achieve the ultimate performance. Hence, while some fans argue on a strength of one, the others argue on strengths of the other driver.

Add up their strengths and weaknesses, what you get are 2 different but similar drivers, and it's down to whether external cirumstances suiting one style over the other.

The reason why Senna seem to have an edge in people's mind is more because as a driver, his skills and story are sort of "dramatized" and made to look out of this world, while maintaining a very human-approach of turning to religion or whatever beliefs. It made people connect to his "image" more than Prost's comparatively machine and professional mechanical approach.

But in reality and skills, with all circumstances equal, i would objectively rate both guys are right up there with the greats and very much in the same range.

From what I've sen from that era, and it's only footage, I was a seven year old girl when Senna died. I think that Senna looked the more flambouyant driver, while Prost and his approach, appeared boring

[TEAM78]

Originally Posted by Ginetta

From what I've sen from that era, and it's only footage, I was a seven year old girl when Senna died. I think that Senna looked the more flambouyant driver, while Prost and his approach, appeared boring

Agreed

[safc_fan89]

If you're not considering who was the better driver but who was better to watch, I'd go for Senna every time. If I was watching him at a young age, I would find him so much better to watch than Prost's approach.

After watching videos of action from then, Prost's whingeing about Senna is irritating, and the more times I see his collision with Senna at Japan 1989 the more I believe that he has no basis for some of his comments against senna.

[Bluewolf]

Senna for sure -- Although Prost was extremely quick and a very wise racing driver -- he never dominated the way Ayrton did -- Watching Senna running away from the entire field race after race was simply business as usual - it was amazing {and that was difficulft for me being a Gerhard Berger fan} Both great drivers though -- BTW -- The pride of my diecast F1 collection is Prost's 1990 641 ferrari by Exoto -- Still one of the most beautiful F1 cars ever built in my humble opinion.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

After watching videos of action from then, Prost's whingeing about Senna is irritating, and the more times I see his collision with Senna at Japan 1989 the more I believe that he has no basis for some of his comments against senna.

Well whinging is safer that driving fellow competitors off the track as Senna did from time to time throughout his career when he wasn't leading. As for Japan 1989, Prost was only doing what he should have done several seasons before; refused to be intimidated by Senna. It bears no comparison to what Senna did the following year and for which, frankly, he should have been stripped of his title.

My criticism of Prost was that his decision to stand up to Senna's on track tactics came too late. It's one of the rare instances where Prost perhaps had something to learn from Mansell!

[safc_fan89]

The thing I don't like is that Prost blatantly turned into Senna. If Senna wasn't there and Prost turned in like that, he would have cut the corner. Senna did the same thing to Prost in 1990 as revenge I'm sure. If you stripped the 1990 title from Senna, you'd have to do the same with Prost for 1989 as that was cheating too.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Senna did the same thing to Prost in 1990 as revenge I'm sure. If you stripped the 1990 title from Senna, you'd have to do the same with Prost for 1989 as that was cheating too.

Senna really did it for revenge. Some years later he admited that. But in the day before he told his best friend, which was the commentator of the brazilian TV, that he would not slow down in the first corner if Prost tried to pass him. And while this is was happening, the commentator was yelling at the broadcast: "He told me! He told me he would do that! He told me!"
While I don't think this was correct from both parts, specially considering Senna's antics, it's hard not to consider "justice done" to the previous season. As the history makes clear, both were above that and they are remembered for their talent rather than low gamblers.

[John Turner]

I totally disagree with you safc-fan89. And furthermore there is absolutely no comparison with Prost trying to hold his line in 1989 (definitely not 'cheating, and can you imagine Senna EVER giving way in those circumstances) and Senna deliberately driving into Prost in 1990 (definitely cheating and dangerous) with total disregard for his safety, that of Prost's and those behind, not to mention that it had nothing to do with motor racing. So no, I wouldn't have to do as you suggest!

[safc_fan89]

I've seen the 1989 collision many times, and when you see the onboard camera view from Prost's car, he was not holding his line. He turned into Senna. Notice how Nannini did not turn into Senna as he was overtaken a few laps before the end of that race?

You could say that Senna was holding his line in the 1990 Japan race, as his line was the normal line for the corner, and that Prost gave him no room. It's a matter of opinion. Sorry if you don't agree with mine, but this is what I think.

[Bononi]

Just adding to my comment, that "justice done" don't justify any dangerous behaviour, in or out of the track.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

You could say that Senna was holding his line in the 1990 Japan race, as his line was the normal line for the corner, and that Prost gave him no room.

That would be a truly remarkable interpretation.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

I've seen the 1989 collision many times, and when you see the onboard camera view from Prost's car, he was not holding his line. He turned into Senna. Notice how Nannini did not turn into Senna as he was overtaken a few laps before the end of that race?

You could say that Senna was holding his line in the 1990 Japan race, as his line was the normal line for the corner, and that Prost gave him no room. It's a matter of opinion. Sorry if you don't agree with mine, but this is what I think.

I would say to this that you are looking at Senna through rose colored glasses as many do since his death. The man was a genius behind the wheel but a flawed genius. I would say that Nannini practically jumped out of Senna's way to avoid being barged off the track as was Senna's style at the time especially in the mood he would have been in in the cockpit. Delibratly running into the back of another driver another driver at the first corner of a race is hardly keeping his line.

[Ginetta]

Originally Posted by Trev Campbell

I would say to this that you are looking at Senna through rose colored glasses as many do since his death. The man was a genius behind the wheel but a flawed genius. I would say that Nannini practically jumped out of Senna's way to avoid being barged off the track as was Senna's style at the time especially in the mood he would have been in in the cockpit. Delibratly running into the back of another driver another driver at the first corner of a race is hardly keeping his line.

As he did when he ran into the back of Martin Brundle in Austrailia

[Adam43]

The famous in-car TV shot? Totally different situations. In practically every way.

As for Senna "holding his line". Interesting theory. I must say I just agree with what Senna said a year later. Not wanting to reproduce the interview here, but he didn't say he was just holding his line!

As for the year before. The suggestion that Prost did it on purpose is something I just don't see. Besides Senna came from a long way back, attempting a move that was in a very tight part of the track.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Just adding to my comment, that "justice done" don't justify any dangerous behaviour, in or out of the track.

Spot on.

Originally Posted by Dutton

That would be a truly remarkable interpretation.

Indeed, it would!

Looking at the '89 incident, Prost does turn in earlier than you would expect. However, I don't believe he had simply decided to take Senna off. Moreover, you have to understand Prost's defence in the context of the two drivers involved. Senna, as has been pointed out above, was no stranger to overly-aggressive tactics that tended to rely on other drivers jumping out of his way to avoid an accident. Prost, being an intelligent driver, tended to give way, perhaps to his detriment in on-track battles with Senna. Before Suzuka, I believe Prost said that he would not make life so easy for Senna this time, and he didn't. It was not a great piece of F1 footage, to be honest, but Senna had been pushing his luck for some time.

As regards revenge, apart from being an abhorrent idea (particularly in a sport where you have to trust the other driver at speeds of up to 200+mph), I believe Senna's argument was more with Balestre and disqualification (which was completely unjust), after coming back to win the race, and the subsequent decision to start pole for 1990 on the 'wrong' side than it was with Prost.

I really do think it's a bit much when Senna fans turn on Prost for his one possible dodgey on-track move!

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by Dutton

That would be a truly remarkable interpretation.

And I don't think that, obviously!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

As for Senna "holding his line". Interesting theory. I must say I just agree with what Senna said a year later. Not wanting to reproduce the interview here, but he didn't say he was just holding his line!

I vaguely remember reading something somewhere alright that he did later admit to diliberately taking Prost out. Senna was no saint.

[Dutton]

He did a divine right from God to win though, IIRC.........

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Dutton

He did a divine right from God to win though, IIRC.........

You're right. He said that God used to ride in the car with him. Maybe they had a discussion over the Prost thing and God asked him to come clean about it in confession

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Dutton

He did a divine right from God to win though, IIRC.........

Senna was a religious man and this is along the lines of something he said. However I think we do the entire situation a mis-service to pin it on that.

krt917's description involving Balestre is on the money.

[Dutton]

Ah, sorry, my bad, I was not meaning to use that as the reason for the incident.

I was making it as a play off of the wording in the previous post saying "Senna was no saint".

Put them together in one go:

A: Senna was no Saint.

B: He did have a divine right from God to win though, IIRC.....

A bit flippant I guess.

[Adam43]

It worked as a link I just wanted to clarify, I didn't mean it to sound so hostile!

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

As for the year before. The suggestion that Prost did it on purpose is something I just don't see. Besides Senna came from a long way back, attempting a move that was in a very tight part of the track.

And the only real place to overtake.

I think Prost definitely did it on purpose. He just had the brain to do it in a subtle manner, one that would not get him punished or ridiculed. Whereas Senna did not care what people thought, as long as he won his title.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by davyboy

You're right. He said that God used to ride in the car with him. Maybe they had a discussion over the Prost thing and God asked him to come clean about it in confession

He never said that.
What he has said, has a complexity that perhaps escape to people not used to transcendental matters. The idea of a conversation and the confession resembles the catholic church and Senna was not catholic.
Uhn... maybe I've been a little harsh here, but I bet there are many people who will find your joke very offensive.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

And the only real place to overtake.

Irrelevant. Is it OK to take someone off at Monaco because there is no where to overtake. If you are too far back you are too far back.

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

I think Prost definitely did it on purpose. He just had the brain to do it in a subtle manner, one that would not get him punished or ridiculed. Whereas Senna did not care what people thought, as long as he won his title.

To say that you have to assume that someone is dishonest and accuse someone of being deceitful, nasty and vindictive. To do so fairly would require a degree of understanding of the man and the situation which is at best beyond us here. However considering everything we have there is still no other evidence to suggest that Prost was anything other than an honourable man in all aspects of his life and racing. On top of that the vast majority of the time he exhibited the complete opposite characteristics to what you are portraying.