[WEC] Porsche GTP / Hypercar: factory and customer

[lms]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Good!!! At last I see a lot of people recognize that LMP1 are horrible.
If you are the ACO, You make the rules. Then Why do you make your main class are so ugly? you can make that your LMP1 look like hypercars. Like McLaren P1, LaFerrari, Porsche 918 RSR, Pagani Huayra etc.
I would like that:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...07659&page=157
Its interesting to note what makes a high performance road car look like a road car rather the current LMPs, since both are (supposedly) 2 seater, 4-wheel vehicles:-
The biggest difference of course is that a road car like the McLaren MP4 12c is a proper two seater, seating two people in a relatively upright comfortable position... not a one and a half seater with a fire extinguisher/battery/KERS system in the passenger seat and a "green house" that is too big for one and too small for two.
The other difference is that a road car, even a high performance one, needs to have at least a little luggage space (generally at the front of a mid or rear engine vehicle).
The final area for main differences is related to safety legislation; bumpers and lights must be at or above a certain height above the road, and sharp edges must not present themselves in case of collision with pedetrians.
The issues above would set the basis for my "Prototype Sportscar" chassis rules, the rules governing the bodywork itself would be relatively free, but of course it would have to wrap itself around the larger passenger area that would be mandated. Fire extinguisers/batteries/KERS systems would need to be either in the engine bay area or in the "luggage" area; not the driver/passenger area.

theres already a gt class

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by lms

theres already a gt class

And building a GT class around hypercars would be brilliant... for one season. Then everyone who wasn't winning bails out after putting in too much money for too little return, and the class dies.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by deggis

Do you understand the difference:

Road legal supercar: designed to go fast and look nice.

Not production based race car: designed to go fast.

You can't make a full prototype class look like road cars, unless you make it half-spec class at the same time. It's not the rules (excluding the fin, but you know why it is there) that make them ugly, it's modern knowhow of aero.

I do not coincide with you. Of course that a racing car not always is pretty but you can do the rules in order that they are seen more pretty.
Did you see the images? And did you read well the text?
If the LMP1 would be in conformity with these rules, these cars would be more beatifull!!!

[GT6]

No leave the two separate prototypes are one thing GT's are another, i like the fact that in this type of racing if one class is not exciting at that particular moment then you can bet the other is

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

And building a GT class around hypercars would be brilliant... for one season. Then everyone who wasn't winning bails out after putting in too much money for too little return, and the class dies.

I am not speaking about homologated street cars, I am speaking about prototypes.
You only need a cabin more big and a bumpers more high.

[wewantourdarbyback]

I personally can't see an argument for Prototypes looking more like road cars. They are meant to be full blooded racing cars, form following function, I can see road cars any day of the week.

[Maelochs]

^This. The whole idea of the endurance racing prototype class is a class of cars designed and built exclusively and entirely to compete in endurance races---not to help market road cars (the GT class does that) and not to try to look "good" to some small subset of fans. The cars are supposed to be designed and built to be moving so fast it doesn't matter what they look like.

Why not design open-wheel single seaters to look like road cars too? If it is such a good idea? Because single-seaters are supposed to be pure race cars, designed and built only to race. Seems almost silly to expect IndyCars or F1 cars to look more like street cars.

Same situation with sports car prototypes---designed and built to race only. Appearance is not an issue at all.

Form follows function is a form of beauty that only some appreciate, but it is also irrelevant. It is liking designing a fighter aircraft and then compromising the combat effectiveness to make it “prettier.” It would get shot down … like the idea that pure racing cars should look like modified road cars should be.

Check this out, and see if anything there appeals: http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...prototype.aspx

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

bails out after putting in too much money for too little return, and the class dies.

Woah, you mean what happens in top flight Prototypes in Sports Car Racing every decade or two and is inevitably going to happen again to P1 in the future?


Sounds familiar.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Woah, you mean what happens in top flight Prototypes in Sports Car Racing every decade or two and is inevitably going to happen again to P1 in the future?


Sounds familiar.

It's always a boom-and-bust cycle in racing and there's nothing we can do about it, no matter how long the boom it has to be followed by the bubble bursting in the end.

[Spyderman]

Hmmmm.. I think that once again there has been a rush to read and interpret things to the extreme. Most that think the current Shark-finned cars are ugly DO NOT advocate LMP1's looking like road cars. Prototypes have existed for years without looking like road cars....and they were beautiful.
Some think the current abortions should look more like road cars. They are entitled to their opinions. I don’t agree, but between the two (what we have today and the suggested road car look), I think it's a toss-up.

[GT6]

I have seen many good years in sportscar racing and many lean years but that will never change. As one great period ends, like group C it can take time until the next development produces a new influx of cars

[Spyderman]

Are we going to see a "Martini Porsche" in 2014?
http://www.roadandtrack.com/racing/r...tm_source=t.co

[deggis]

Not at LM, because of France's alcohol advertising laws?

[Spyderman]

Ah yes! - I forgot about that.
Oh well; nevermind.

It's a shame really. Martini could have used the fin to advertise their price list.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Poster by Maelochs
^This. The whole idea of the endurance racing prototype class is a class of cars designed and built exclusively and entirely to compete in endurance races---not to help market road cars (the GT class does that) and not to try to look "good" to some small subset of fans. The cars are supposed to be designed and built to be moving so fast it doesn't matter what they look like.

Do you know why they're called "prototypes", and how they first came about at Le Mans?

Before the war, Le Mans was a race for Grand Tourers, but after the war, manufacturers weren't putting enough cars into production to race them. Instead, they had cars in early stages of development which they insisted to the ACO (and probably truthfully intended) would one day go on sale, but they wanted to test them over 24 hours.

Prototypes have never been just about moving fast. Why do they have covered wheels? Why are they referred to as sportscars? And why does the ACO insist on the cars looking to look as if they could carry a passenger?

Le Mans is, fundamentally, about road relevance. It's its history, it's justification, its soul.

Whether that means they have to look like road cars, is up for debate - but prototypes are not just about going fast.

For me, personally, the cars have moved too far away from road cars. I thought the late 90s GT1/GTP cars struck a nice balance.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

And why does the ACO insist on the cars looking to look as if they could carry a passenger?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Ah yes! - I forgot about that.
Oh well; nevermind.

It's a shame really. Martini could have used the fin to advertise their price list.

They could still race with the colors , every one would know what it is , much like everyone knows Ferrari is still sponsored by Marlboro cigarettes .

But my feeling is Red Bull . Red Bull sponsor a lot in the VAG group , of which Porsche now is a part , along with the rumor of Mark Webber .

[Spyderman]

That would be excellent!

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Do you know why they're called "prototypes", and how they first came about at Le Mans?

Before the war, Le Mans was a race for Grand Tourers, but after the war, manufacturers weren't putting enough cars into production to race them. Instead, they had cars in early stages of development which they insisted to the ACO (and probably truthfully intended) would one day go on sale, but they wanted to test them over 24 hours.

Prototypes have never been just about moving fast. Why do they have covered wheels? Why are they referred to as sportscars? And why does the ACO insist on the cars looking to look as if they could carry a passenger?

Le Mans is, fundamentally, about road relevance. It's its history, it's justification, its soul.

Whether that means they have to look like road cars, is up for debate - but prototypes are not just about going fast.

For me, personally, the cars have moved too far away from road cars. I thought the late 90s GT1/GTP cars struck a nice balance.

I agree with you, and this is what I was asking.
I think that you misunderstood what I said.
I do not want road cars. What is a road car?
A BMW M3, Corvette, Porsche 911, Viper, Ferrari 458 are road cars,
but the late 90s GT1, Corvette LMP1 Evo, LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Pagani Huayra are not really road cars, beyond some are homologated to the street.
I use LaFerrari, Mc Laren P1, Pagani Huayra only as an example of the form what I want for the LMP1. I do not said that this cars have race in LMP1.
Neither I want that the cars have homologation of street for racing in LMP1.
just look at a picture of an Audi r18 and a Porsche 911 GT1 98, and you will see that I have reason. The Porsche 911 GT1 98 is very much nice that R18.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

but the late 90s GT1, Corvette LMP1 Evo, LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Pagani Huayra are not really road cars, beyond some are homologated to the street.
I use LaFerrari, Mc Laren P1, Pagani Huayra only as an example of the form what I want for the LMP1. I do not said that this cars have race in LMP1.
Neither I want that the cars have homologation of street for racing in LMP1.
just look at a picture of an Audi r18 and a Porsche 911 GT1 98, and you will see that I have reason. The Porsche 911 GT1 98 is very much nice that R18.

SOME are? Aren't they all? You still don't seem to want to understand the different between pure racing car and a road legal super/track car. 911 EVO is one of my favourite racing cars but it is only a half prototype. Look at the actual LMPs of that era, they already started to have some features of current LMPs, raised noses etc (and of course that one dates back to 1993...).

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

And why does the ACO insist on the cars looking to look as if they could carry a passenger?

The only mono-sit car allowed was the WR. But two sits remain the ACO and sportcars philosophy.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I agree with you, and this is what I was asking.
I think that you misunderstood what I said.
I do not want road cars. What is a road car?
A BMW M3, Corvette, Porsche 911, Viper, Ferrari 458 are road cars,
but the late 90s GT1, Corvette LMP1 Evo, LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Pagani Huayra are not really road cars, beyond some are homologated to the street.
I use LaFerrari, Mc Laren P1, Pagani Huayra only as an example of the form what I want for the LMP1. I do not said that this cars have race in LMP1.
Neither I want that the cars have homologation of street for racing in LMP1.
just look at a picture of an Audi r18 and a Porsche 911 GT1 98, and you will see that I have reason. The Porsche 911 GT1 98 is very much nice that R18.

The trouble is the manufacturers move the goal posts as they did with with the '90's GT1 cars which ultimately became the the Toyota GT1 which looks more akin to an R18 than a road car

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by deggis

SOME are? Aren't they all? You still don't seem to want to understand the different between pure racing car and a road legal super/track car. 911 EVO is one of my favourite racing cars but it is only a half prototype. Look at the actual LMPs of that era, they already started to have some features of current LMPs, raised noses etc (and of course that one dates back to 1993...).

Of course I understand the different between pure racing car and a road legal super/track car. But in my point of view, I do not care if the performance is lower if the car look more beautiful.
I was talking about 911 GT1 98 not 911 EVO, Both of cars are very beautiful but they are different cars.
You do not forget that this discussion start because some people here think that the new Porsche LMP1 look horrible like the Toyota and Audi.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Mal

The trouble is the manufacturers move the goal posts as they did with with the '90's GT1 cars which ultimately became the the Toyota GT1 which looks more akin to an R18 than a road car

I agree with you, but the Toyota GT1 not comply with the rules I wrote on the previous page.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I was talking about 911 GT1 98 not 911 EVO, Both of cars are very beautiful but they are different cars.

Mistake, I also meant the EVO 98. But I still count it as a half-prototype.