BTCC 2024 News & Rumours

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Matt K

Let's wait and see but as said, the grid that's shaping up for now seems very strong in terms of quality but disappointing in terms of quantity. Of course I'd rather see a smaller but high-quality grid than otherwise but it's quite worrying. And if indeed we'll have 20-21 cars this will seem a really small grid after years of having around 30 cars. As we know the times are tough so even a 20-21 car grid in 2024 doesn't mean we don't go below 20 in 2025. And that would be alarming. But let's not go ahead so much for now, the 2024 grid is not yet officially set. I still believe that the numbers will go up a bit although fail to see who can make up those numbers.

Hopefully the available space will give an incentive for growth in 2025, giving potential new teams a year to formulate their plans with the (almost) guarantee there’ll be spots for them on the grid. I can’t remember exactly, but IIRC from the December Tin Top Tuesday Gow implied there were some interested parties, but by the time Hard’s licenses / cars had freed up they had their 2024 plans sorted.

Doesn’t matter if it’s simply too expensive however (nor if NAPA dominate again). 3 seasons now without any new models on the grid and teams dropping like flies? Doesn’t seem like NGTC is sustainable any more.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by thetool

But that's not really the way it works. There will not be a team on the grid with more than two cars in 2024 where a single factor could sideline all their entries (from a commercial point of view - there can always be technical anomalies such as that suffered by the Subaru's at Thruxton a few years ago).

Don't be fooled by branding. The teams (so far) are the following 4x NAPA, 4x Excerl8, 4x Speedworks, 4x WSR, 3x PMR, 2x Restart

Doesn't take much for any one of those 4 car teams to shut up shop.

[Sodemo]

How do TCR costs compare?

[MarcusH26]

I do think the future of the NGTC ruleset is something that will come up more and more, with the comments this winter from drivers and team owners about the costs required to run these cars. There's obviously teams that have evaluated changing cars in the past but haven't managed to either get it past TOCA or just decided the costs are too great.

[Daverb]

Originally Posted by Ant25

I’m sure we will see new cars and teams next season im sure teams are itching to Come into the Btcc! Be plenty of spare cars!

It’s funny now when you look at the very first post in this thread from June last year.

[Protonman]

Originally Posted by MarcusH26

I do think the future of the NGTC ruleset is something that will come up more and more, with the comments this winter from drivers and team owners about the costs required to run these cars. There's obviously teams that have evaluated changing cars in the past but haven't managed to either get it past TOCA or just decided the costs are too great.

Very much a case of quality over quantity thus far . 3 champions , 3 with potential to be so (Hill Cammish and Cook) 5 more race winners (7 if Huff and Moffatt make it ) two more with top 3 finishes (Watson and Osbourne) and two more who were unlucky not too (Pearson and Doble ) Only Sumpton is an unknown and possibly a pay driver in the 4th Hyundai If Thompson Or Gamble can force deals that adds another race winner and Top 3 winner . Add to this the unknown nature of the expected 4th driver at WSR ( I cannot see them going down to 3 cars , they usually field 4 drivers and are highly respected and have the BMW backing to make it happen ) That just leaves the last big concern which is the 3rd seat at PMR but we have seen before their ability to find unknown talent with only a small budget to use . Not bad and certainly exiting enough to dispel despair. Would welcome Adam Smalley or another fast driver from GT but it does concern me that others cannot move up from the feeder series , some of whom are also down on numbers . That may improve with an improved financial position and so long as this proves to be an exiting season and not 1 man dominated as per F1

[MarcusH26]

Originally Posted by Protonman

Very much a case of quality over quantity thus far . 3 champions , 3 with potential to be so (Hill Cammish and Cook) 5 more race winners (7 if Huff and Moffatt make it ) two more with top 3 finishes (Watson and Osbourne) and two more who were unlucky not too (Pearson and Doble ) Only Sumpton is an unknown and possibly a pay driver in the 4th Hyundai If Thompson Or Gamble can force deals that adds another race winner and Top 3 winner . Add to this the unknown nature of the expected 4th driver at WSR ( I cannot see them going down to 3 cars , they usually field 4 drivers and are highly respected and have the BMW backing to make it happen ) That just leaves the last big concern which is the 3rd seat at PMR but we have seen before their ability to find unknown talent with only a small budget to use . Not bad and certainly exiting enough to dispel despair. Would welcome Adam Smalley or another fast driver from GT but it does concern me that others cannot move up from the feeder series , some of whom are also down on numbers . That may improve with an improved financial position and so long as this proves to be an exiting season and not 1 man dominated as per F1

I think the front of the field quality is right up there with the best it has been in terms of champions and general title contenders that are there or thereabouts and will win races.


I think my concern is more about where do the next Sutton/Cammish/Ingram come from? Now you haven't got Clio Cup that was always the feeder series into the BTCC and with less cars on the grid that need bigger budgets it seems it's going to be interesting to see how it all pans out.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Protonman

Very much a case of quality over quantity thus far . 3 champions , 3 with potential to be so (Hill Cammish and Cook) 5 more race winners (7 if Huff and Moffatt make it ) two more with top 3 finishes (Watson and Osbourne) and two more who were unlucky not too (Pearson and Doble ) Only Sumpton is an unknown and possibly a pay driver in the 4th Hyundai If Thompson Or Gamble can force deals that adds another race winner and Top 3 winner . Add to this the unknown nature of the expected 4th driver at WSR ( I cannot see them going down to 3 cars , they usually field 4 drivers and are highly respected and have the BMW backing to make it happen ) That just leaves the last big concern which is the 3rd seat at PMR but we have seen before their ability to find unknown talent with only a small budget to use . Not bad and certainly exiting enough to dispel despair. Would welcome Adam Smalley or another fast driver from GT but it does concern me that others cannot move up from the feeder series , some of whom are also down on numbers . That may improve with an improved financial position and so long as this proves to be an exiting season and not 1 man dominated as per F1

BMW backing to make it happen? Really? Not so sure there is much cash, certainly not enough to fund a car

[Mike Harte]

From memory, Team BMW (WSR) have only entered 2 or 3 cars in the last decade or so, and only increased to 4, albeit one car is entered by MB, in the last couple of years.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by MarcusH26

I think the front of the field quality is right up there with the best it has been in terms of champions and general title contenders that are there or thereabouts and will win races.


I think my concern is more about where do the next Sutton/Cammish/Ingram come from? Now you haven't got Clio Cup that was always the feeder series into the BTCC and with less cars on the grid that need bigger budgets it seems it's going to be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Plenty of series around which set people up for BTCC - Fiesta Juniors, Ginetta Juniors, Civic Cup, Mini Challenge (especially JCWs), MX5s, TCR, Porsche Sprint Series and many more

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by antnee

Plenty of series around which set people up for BTCC - Fiesta Juniors, Ginetta Juniors, Civic Cup, Mini Challenge (especially JCWs), MX5s, TCR, Porsche Sprint Series and many more

How many have actually stepped up from those in recent years though? Even the JCW champions can’t make it in.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by Evantra

How many have actually stepped up from those in recent years though? Even the JCW champions can’t make it in.

Looking at recent debutants (since 2020), these were the series they raced in the year before making their BTCC debut.

Scott Sumpton - TCR UK

Ronan Pearson - MINI JCW

Mikey Doble - BMW Compact Cup and Ginetta GT5

Andrew Watson - Asian Le Mans Series (GT3)

Dexter Patterson - GB3

George Gamble - end of racing hiatus, previous series PCCGB & GT4 Europe

Ash Hand - end of racing hiatus, previous series British GT (GT4)

Will Powell - Britcar and TCR UK

Rick Parfitt - end of racing hiatus, previously British GT (GT3)

Jack Mitchell - British GT (GT3) and made a MINI JCW appearance

Nick Halstead - British GT and Ginetta series

James Gornall - MINI JCW

Jack Butel - British GT (GT4) and Lamborghini Super Trofeo

Jade Edwards - Renault Clio Cup

Jessica Hawkins - W Series

Glynn Geddie - British GT (GT3)

Ollie Brown - VW Racing Cup

[MarcusH26]

Originally Posted by Evantra

How many have actually stepped up from those in recent years though? Even the JCW champions can’t make it in.

This is more my point , it's not about where they would come from series wise , it's about how do they actually manage to step up to BTCC unless they are exceptionally well funded. Dan Zelos seems to have been on the fringes of making the grid for years without actually making it.

[Protonman]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

From memory, Team BMW (WSR) have only entered 2 or 3 cars in the last decade or so, and only increased to 4, albeit one car is entered by MB, in the last couple of years.

Hill obviously has extra backing through his links to MB whilst Turkington continues with longstanding personal sponsors . Likewise Jelley in recent years and I suspect he may have been able to continue with maybe a small increase . However the team give the impression they wanted another younger and possibly quicker driver . Watson was talking to them but chose Toyota . Therefore it now needs another driver with a similar budget to Watson . The fourth car added last year is the 2 year deal with Morgan which is already announced as continuing

[thetool]

Originally Posted by antnee

Don't be fooled by branding. The teams (so far) are the following 4x NAPA, 4x Excerl8, 4x Speedworks, 4x WSR, 3x PMR, 2x Restart

Doesn't take much for any one of those 4 car teams to shut up shop.

You're completely missing the point. Whilst many of the entries share engineering, (i.e. WSR, Speedworks, Excerl8, etc) they are to a lesser-or-greater extent (depending on the team) commerically independent.

Take the Speedworks/Toyota team for example. Half the money comes from Toyota/Motul/other Toyota-linked commercial partners for two of the cars, whereas the other two are LKQ/Euro Car Parts/SYNETIQ/other random dictionary combinations.

So two cars dependent upon the Toyota (and affiliates) money and two cars dependent upon LKQ et al.

It's a model that has been seen numerous times before, perhaps most notably when egg:Sport backed half the factory Vauxhall team in 2001-2.

And that's not even considering the wider point that it's not the number of teams that are the limiting factor, it's drivers will fully-funded budgets. For example, if a few weeks before the start of the season one of the leading teams was suddenly discovered to be a front for a criminal enterprise, whilst the series would lose the team, you'd find that most if not all the other drivers would be able to make arrangements to be run elsewhere (not withstanding a lack of available chassis, etc., which may be problem).

[Ant25]

Senna proctor has put a post on his instagram story showing his new race licence

[coffinpilot]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

How do TCR costs compare?

A lot cheaper. A lot, lot cheaper, but those cars are built to a budget cap for sales (around £145,000 new at the moment I think) with the manufacturers absorbing the R&D costs.

I know I've seen posts all over the internet saying BTCC should go TCR in the future, and I'm sure WSC would love that, but I think you'd end up with a similar situation to DTM where the GT3 cars are not quite GT3. The teams would want the ability to develop the cars, or TOCA would want to have control over BoP so it would be different to TCR worldwide.

If the go ahead was given for independent teams to select cars and design and build their own machines to TCR rules (if WSC would allow the IP to be used) it would cost a lot, lot more than the £145,000 purchase price. It probably would be closer to an NGTC build than many would like to admit.

The interesting thing about TCR in the UK at least is how few people run the cars. Some teams are turning the car around between races (only two on a Sunday) with two or three people. I know there is a lot of pressure to squeeze three races out of a car in five to six hours, but is staffing levels a bit OTT compared to the cars that are run at BTCC? Is it a luxury that could be cut back? I only ask because I don't know!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

A lot cheaper. A lot, lot cheaper, but those cars are built to a budget cap for sales (around £145,000 new at the moment I think) with the manufacturers absorbing the R&D costs.

I know I've seen posts all over the internet saying BTCC should go TCR in the future, and I'm sure WSC would love that, but I think you'd end up with a similar situation to DTM where the GT3 cars are not quite GT3. The teams would want the ability to develop the cars, or TOCA would want to have control over BoP so it would be different to TCR worldwide.

If the go ahead was given for independent teams to select cars and design and build their own machines to TCR rules (if WSC would allow the IP to be used) it would cost a lot, lot more than the £145,000 purchase price. It probably would be closer to an NGTC build than many would like to admit.

The interesting thing about TCR in the UK at least is how few people run the cars. Some teams are turning the car around between races (only two on a Sunday) with two or three people. I know there is a lot of pressure to squeeze three races out of a car in five to six hours, but is staffing levels a bit OTT compared to the cars that are run at BTCC? Is it a luxury that could be cut back? I only ask because I don't know!

I am sure BTCC teams are not extravagantly staffing their cars , why would they waste money doing that. What they are doing is running them in a professional manor which is why BTCC is the UK Premier catagory and arguably the Best Touring car series in the World ( now where is my time hat)

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

I am sure BTCC teams are not extravagantly staffing their cars , why would they waste money doing that. What they are doing is running them in a professional manor which is why BTCC is the UK Premier catagory and arguably the Best Touring car series in the World ( now where is my time hat)

And the given the pretty poor reliability issues within TCR UK, it seems it’s rather they are understaffed.

[InYourMirrors45]

I’m a little surprised there is such little whispers about the 4th WSR Seat. I know the initial plan didn’t work out for whatever reason so perhaps they are holding out for the highest bidder. I don’t expect a particularly high calibre driver there considering they already have 3 very good drivers. More intrigued about the last seat at ExcelR8 assuming chilton is staying. There were mumblings of a previous champion filling that seat around autosport show time but that’s all gone a little quiet now. I think if there serious about beating Sutton/NAPA then they need someone else capable of matching ingrams results.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

The interesting thing about TCR in the UK at least is how few people run the cars. Some teams are turning the car around between races (only two on a Sunday) with two or three people. I know there is a lot of pressure to squeeze three races out of a car in five to six hours, but is staffing levels a bit OTT compared to the cars that are run at BTCC? Is it a luxury that could be cut back?

If you had the chutzpah to wander down a BTCC pit lane or paddock and ask people how much they're being paid to do what they're doing, and they didn't just walk off (or punch you first!) and answered honestly, you'd be surprised just how many people are spannering for nothing. Yes, they might get their accommodation paid for, clothing, goodies and fed for the weekend, but there are *lots* of weekend techies across the paddock.

Less so during the weekday factory hours, admittedly, but there's an awful lot of goodwill across the TOCA paddock - no different to any other apart from the very upper echelons, really.

[coffinpilot]

Originally Posted by Greem

If you had the chutzpah to wander down a BTCC pit lane or paddock and ask people how much they're being paid to do what they're doing, and they didn't just walk off (or punch you first!) and answered honestly, you'd be surprised just how many people are spannering for nothing. Yes, they might get their accommodation paid for, clothing, goodies and fed for the weekend, but there are *lots* of weekend techies across the paddock.

Less so during the weekday factory hours, admittedly, but there's an awful lot of goodwill across the TOCA paddock - no different to any other apart from the very upper echelons, really.

Sorry there. Like I posted, I asked because I genuinely don't know, and as it's a couple of months until the first test of the season I'm unable to 'wander down a BTCC pitlane or paddock' to entice or ask to be physically assaulted.

I thought there was no such thing as silly questions.....

[MarcusH26]

Originally Posted by InYourMirrors45

I’m a little surprised there is such little whispers about the 4th WSR Seat. I know the initial plan didn’t work out for whatever reason so perhaps they are holding out for the highest bidder. I don’t expect a particularly high calibre driver there considering they already have 3 very good drivers. More intrigued about the last seat at ExcelR8 assuming chilton is staying. There were mumblings of a previous champion filling that seat around autosport show time but that’s all gone a little quiet now. I think if there serious about beating Sutton/NAPA then they need someone else capable of matching ingrams results.

I find Excler8 quite an interesting one , it does feel like they need someone that can get more on terms with Tingram but obviously Chilton and Halstead bring a lot of budget and Pearson is still developing as a driver.

Would have loved them to get someone like a Bobby T in the fourth car if budgets and sponsors all lined up but I realise that's probably got no chance of happening

[BobJones]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

How do TCR costs compare?

Valid question, but you do ask this once a season...

[Greem]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

Sorry there.

No need to apologise!

I thought there was no such thing as silly questions.....

There aren't, which is why I answered it. Slightly tongue in cheek I'll admit - the comment about being punched is that I don't think asking that sort of question in any context is likely to be well received!

Sorry if the answer came across in a way I didn't mean.