LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[old man]

Only loosely connected but I read on another thread that Manor Endurance Racing Ltd is a recent registration at Companies House by a solicitor who has been know to work with John Booth

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

As long as they continue their striking blue livery I don't really care what they call the car and/or engine, that car is a joy for the eyes!

The Signatech Courage-Oreca-"Alpine" is just a blur to me, I never even remember it's there (to the point where I don't even remember where it run last year), KCMG and Pegasus have more memorable blue shades too.

[Mike E]

ORECA are producing an upgrade kit for existing customers running the 05 as it already complies with the new regs.

http://sportscar365.com/industry/ore...e-upgrade-kit/

[Deleted]

Why did they skip title of "Oreca 06"? I mean with 05 it was understandable as the R-One is basically Oreca 04, but here...?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Why did they skip title of "Oreca 06"? I mean with 05 it was understandable as the R-One is basically Oreca 04, but here...?

Probably another unreleased project? For example an early design for LMP3 that got killed off when they were told that they could only supply the engine? They also skipped 02 as that one was a 2010-2011-ish-spec LMP1 design that never saw the light of day.

[Deleted]

You could always pretend that the FLM09 (modded Courage LC75) was Oreca 02, and that they would've branded the now-known-as Oreca 03 (again another mod of Courage LC75) as Oreca 04 had the stillborn LMP1 existed.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Mike E

ORECA are producing an upgrade kit for existing customers running the 05 as it already complies with the new regs.

http://sportscar365.com/industry/ore...e-upgrade-kit/

I'm 90% sure I saw something months ago that said ACO told Oreca they couldn't just upgrade the old car.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Probably another unreleased project? For example an early design for LMP3 that got killed off when they were told that they could only supply the engine? They also skipped 02 as that one was a 2010-2011-ish-spec LMP1 design that never saw the light of day.

Good shout on the P3 plan.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Some info here on the 2017 Ligier.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...r-js-p217.html

Can't help wishing that they'd stuck to the old Ligier numbering system of having even numbers as sportscars.

The JS P217 sounds more like a BRM to me.

[Deleted]

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/12565...des-in-daytona

According to multiple sources, two ongoing sticking points – the choice of an electronics package, and the dimensions for the car – went unresolved.

Oh no hurrying with your dimensions, these things are only supposed to be testing on track by summer...

edit - Darth Chaunac also not pleased of the non speedy progression of his own spec rules
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...gulations.html

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/12565...des-in-daytona

According to multiple sources, two ongoing sticking points – the choice of an electronics package, and the dimensions for the car – went unresolved.

Oh no hurrying with your dimensions, these things are only supposed to be testing on track by summer...

edit - Darth Chaunac also not pleased of the non speedy progression of his own spec rules
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/0...gulations.html

It is not that many years ago that we praised Oreca for their large scale investment into sportscars.
Let's keep the jokes a bit more civil than making references to fictional dictatorships.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by CTD

It is not that many years ago that we praised Oreca for their large scale investment into sportscars.
Let's keep the jokes a bit more civil than making references to fictional dictatorships.

Oreca were the ones that came up with this spec engine and 4-chassis only nonsense.

[Deleted]

Oh c'mon CTD those kinds of jokes are light hearted and used here constantly, it gets boring without some spice on the air.

I still respect Oreca... outside LMP2 where they messed it all up and even there the 05 is the best looking of the bunch (now that the HPD 04 is dead) and has bit of a LM-special performance seemingly going on. But it is true, that their (co-)greediness led to this nonsense we are facing in the class.

[Maelochs]

What I see when I look at all this is ... Daytona Prototypes won. A limited number of spec chassis with either spec or performance-balanced motors, spec tires .... Oreca? NASCAR is whose vision is continuing.

That's okay. LMP2 in Europe isa now a glorified FLM/PC class, but it has always provided good racing and likely always will. In North America, we get engine variety, even if they will all be carefully tweaked so that the best is no better than the worst.

Most important, sports car racing isn't going to implode, as it has so many times in the past fifty years. It is hard to manage costs and competition and keep manufacturers on board and still keep fans interested.

If the current system (the coming system) does that job ... better than another collapse, better than more series dying or drying up to the point of needing to merge, better than one- and two-car classes.

There is a balance between "run what you brung" and total spec racing which works well enough for all stakeholders, fans included. This might be a better balance than some past attempts.

Not trying to ell others how to think, but I am staying hopeful. It seems reasonable to hope that I will still be able to enjoy sports car racing. So ... I win.

[Pontlieue]

Blaming ORECA for the spec rules is a bit unfair. Yes, they aren't exactly opposed to the new rules. Of course they aren't. They are a company trying to survive on race car sales. There's not much better that could have happened to them.

The blame, for me, lies with the ACO and especially the FIA. Look outside sportscar racing, and you'll see that this spec trend has been going on for a while. Technical competition has been all but wiped out in lower formulae.

Instead of promoting technical competition, most FIA sanctioned series have moved to spec regulations because that's the only reliable way they know to keep costs down.

I can only think of two series that have gone against the trend. IndyCar and Formula E have moved away from full spec rules, and cautiously (re-)introduced some competition.

[Deleted]

My blame-o-meter

40% ACO-FIA
30% IMSA-NASCAR
25% Oreca
5% Onroak

ACO-FIA obviously for tying it all together, cost cut crap, global spec-pushing.

IMSA-NASCAR for wanting DP 2.0 dumbed formula continuation.

Oreca for cashing in and originating talks probably.

Onroak perhaps not being quite as aggressive in pushing as Oreca (per "insiders") but still going along with and obviously being huge benefactor.

Originally I also though the spec engine maker being huge political casher in this, but Zytek doesn't really seem like the company to have the power or even lust for such.

[Maelochs]

Here’s at least Part of the deal—the best racing series (series offering the best racing) will not necessarily survive unless it is also a really well-run business.

ALMS proved that amply.

Fact is, manufacture=s don’t really want technological competition because it is really expensive and there is no guarantee of any sort of success except to keep spending.

If I were a major manufacturer, I might see racing as a way to weed out the competition—Wal-Mart them—lose money which I could afford to lose while they lose money they could not afford to lose.

I am not thrilled with the situation, but I can understand why this all has come to pass. Either racing needs to sell tickets like football teams, or it needs to spend less money. And in racing all the good stuff is really expensive, and all the new stuff is really experimental, which is also really expensive.

Somehow, racing as an industry has to earn revenue to match expenditures. The teams have to eat, and want health insurance and retirement investments—just like the rest of us.

On top of that, the entertainment market is saturated, the sports market is saturated, the TV market is expensive …

Back in the day, companies really thought they needed racing, or there were powerful people in those companies fooling the rest of the board into thinking they needed racing. Now, management has figured out that racing is not needed for development and not needed for marketing. So … what is it for?

We lived through a Golden Age of racing, when simply going faster resonated across the nation and the world. Those days are over. We can enjoy what we have or do something else.

[Lizardfolk]

It's the way of the world really.

IndyCar's DW12 is a spec tub with "branded manufacturer" aero body

V8 Supercar has a spec interior frame with spec parts and manufacturer branded body

STCC is a spec interior frame with spec parts and manufacturer branded body.

DTM/Super GT, same thing, spec tub and parts with manufacturer branded body

Now IMSA is joining that list of a "spec parts and tub with open exterior bits" series. Everything else is either outright spec or F1, P1, and WRC each constructor builds their own car. But the rules for series like F1, P1, and WRC are very strict and defined anyway that the cars generally look about the same.

the "golden age" being over is correct. Even a completely open series like F1 or P1, it's not like the 70s and 80s anymore where cars are so different that every car goes by is an outright test against different design philosophies. At this point, I agree that it's probably better to make sure a series is healthy and sustainable in an era where motorsport interest is at an all time low but there's atleast some reasonable differences between the cars.

Personally, I still see good racing and even with BoP, I've always been more of a racing fan for the on track action rather than the technical marvel of the interior engines. After all, I'm watching racing, not a car show. Although I personally would prefer if the cars weren't completely spec or identical to each other. Really IMO, I don't know if I would say that the "golden age" of racing is over, but the "golden age" of racing development certainly is over. And for me, those two aren't synonymous.

Can't wait until 2017 IMSA P2s, hopefully we get a good number of factory teams on top of a good number of privateers in stock WEC P2s.

[MagVanisher]

@Lizardfolk
While Super GT has some bit of development, the rest went to the spec route.

Now then, may the best LMP2 manufacturer wins most of the races and destroy LMP2 altogether!

[YZFrider]

@Maelochs @Lizardfolks

None of what you say I disagree with. I'd like to add a few things though.

1: Cost of racing is also tied up with sponsorship - Look at the dwindling numbers of CTSC. Booming fields of 70+ cars were common just a few seasons ago. The race distances, number of races, and tech regs haven't changed at all. Yet racing all of a sudden got expensive? Granted the Z/28R, GT350C, the merger haven't helped either. Point being, expense is all relative and no racing car or race series is expensive unless you have the sponsorship. The team has to be a good salesman to sponsorship, but it sure doesn't help if the pool of sponsorship has shrunk(for various reasons; economy, saturated market, other sports competition etc)

2: If the spec or semi spec route is the future, I rather prefer the GT3/Super GT/Aussie V8 route. I feel those organizations have provided a good middle ground between the two extremes, NASCAR on one side and F1 on the other. My ideal middle ground being cars that look and have a connection to it's road going variant (Cup cars do not do this), close racing for entertainment but not so contrived that it's WWE. BOP is ok I guess I just wished it wasn't tweaked on a race to race basis Cost containment, but the cars have to be fast (P2/DP's did not do this, but thank goodness the speed was bumped up and is going up again for 2017.)

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

@Lizardfolk
While Super GT has some bit of development, the rest went to the spec route.

Now then, may the best LMP2 manufacturer wins most of the races and destroy LMP2 altogether!

That is always a possible outcome — and it may well be what we’re seeing happen in LMP3.

[TF110]

Super GT has the gt300 class which is a mix of part-spec (mother chassis), GT3 and jaf GT300 (mostly free). GT500 used to be mostly free until they adopted the DTM rules, sadly. I think Super GT was one of the best in terms of rules and variety until just recently with those new DTM style GT500's. Still quite good, though.

[joeb]

Dagys has some more info on the recent meeting of ACO/IMSA on 2017 P2 rules:

http://sportscar365.com/features/com...r-lmp2-future/

Really hoped they would have had their **** together by now. The further delays only hurt the prospects of seeing additional cars for 2017.

[Dyson Mazda]

IMSA should turn PC into ACO Spec P2 and the ACO should turn P1-Privateer into DPi.

[BullMan]

This stuff is going to get out of hand, and by this time next year the two sets of rules are going to be so wildly different that the cars have no ability to race with each other. If that happens, it's going to suck hard.