Historic Racing and Historic Racing Today Forum-Where is it going ?

[p261brm]

What has posters real names have to do with this thread Julian? by the way is my insulin still in your fridge?
This comment could be construed to be 'off topic' as well except I feel it has a bearing on the title of the thread; if not I'm sure JT will expediate it's removal.
In the October issue of Motor Sport there is a letter commenting on the Silverstone 'Classic' whereby the cost to a spectator by the time everything taken into account an expensive day out ensued. If ticket sales do not attain a good proportion of receipts then the cost to the competitor will rise, where then will Historic Motor Racing at Silverstone head? According to the correspondant Castle Coombe. I hope he is not correct in this assumption.

[zefarelly]

I suppose that depends on the tightness of your wallet and roughly were you live.

I'm not aware of any regular(ish) posters who hide identities so have never taken any issue with it, but these old folk like to keep it proper, which is fine by me.

yours sincerely

J.M.A-B

[Delbert]

Aren't historics driven by the formula of: age you were when you were taken racing by your father + the number of years it takes you to be able to afford the cars you watched and had on your bedroom wall? so roughly 10+35 = 45.

This formula works to keep historics constantly moving forwards BUT up to the point that electronics take over from spanners. If you look at F1 you can't really run anything past 1994 unless you have a team of computer geeks. As for sports cars - a 10 year old watching the Gulf Astons will not be able to buy and run one in 35 years unless he is the next Bill Gates. and then it won't be much fun coz no on else wil be there to play with.

[Al Weyman]

we are all sad bstds talking for "fun" about our hobby

Ain't that a fact! :-)

[driftwood]

Delbert ( i asume that is your real name that your mother gave you or are yuo The Boy named Sue?) i liked the mathematical equation and it does have its merits

which is why historic clubs like HSCC need to roll forward not stay in the past
yes i recall Lola T332 762 cars at Brands races when i was 10-4 ish etc but i also saw cars in the mid 80`s and its time things rolled forward 5 years possibly 10 years
BUT there are certain fractions and individuals that oppose this and i fear its of self preservation of the kit they have bought or to retain the values contained therin

Andreas Theodopolopohippopotumus- Smith

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>If you look at F1 you can't really run anything past 1994 unless you have a team of computer geeks.

The point is, in the 20-teens it will be easier to find computer geeks than mechanics, so the current "Historics" will have to be pensioned off because the spanner men will be.

There's a danger in looking at historics from today's standpoint only. Times have changed and they'll change again. I think our view of Historic racing came into being in the 80s, it may wither for a while then be re-invented in 20 years time with different cars.

Will there be racing then? Who knows, with luck the car will go the way of the horse with only enthusiasts keeping one, mostly for sport and not serious transport. And I *like* the idea of more people using cars for sport :-)

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

then we have John saying he thinks cars must have racing period history thereby making them exteremelly expensive and out the reach of the majority!

Al I hope it doesn't sound like that is what I think, because I certainly don't. That is merely the case with that category of car. I think it works for that category because if the racing was like other historic touring categories (where cars regularly sport battle scars) a lot of the cars would not be raced as they are otherwise museum pieces and in show condition in most cases. Mike there are not a lot of these cars racing, hence combining '73-84 Grp C's and '85-92 Grp A's. Categories are frequently combined at our events to make up grid numbers.

http://I'm intending to go out racin... my abilities.

I agree with Redneck Rocket's sentiments. The cheapest way to go racing is build what you can afford, race it and not be perturbed when you don't win! If you want to be at the front you have to accept it will be expensive IMO.

Re your brake example our regs have calipers allowed to be replaced by period alternatives (which can include 4-spot on a Yank). It does need careful framing of regs though, some then wanted rear discs not drums - they now race the Biante series I mentioned earlier. That's not cheap, to convert to the new specs cost thousands, then there is the 600hp engine to replace the old 500hp one (350 Camaro), etc.

As said above, to me historic racing should be to historic regs, otherwise there are plenty of non-historic categories. The Biante series is an example of that, old cars but not 5th Category historic under CAMS regs.

[Al Weyman]

I doubt many genuine 350 Chevy engines on a single carb make 600bhp despite what you may be told and those that do would be no good on a road race track and more suited to the drag strip. I doubt that many even make a genuine 500bhp and this was not just me reading somewhere this I was told by a top builder who has a Superflow Dyno and tested a load of these so called high output engines from US builders on his dyno to find many a 100+bhp down on what they were meant to make. In fact we built a 406 ci smallblock and got 450bhp with a flat tappet cam and he reconned that was very healthy compared with some he had seen from the states claiming a lot more.

Interestingly enough I know someone (younger as in under 40) who has been racing a late model car and recently bought a very nice early 70's historic version of the same and apparantly he does not like it although the car is proven winner. So maybe he has been spoilt by the later technologly and just not interesting in peddling old metal which lets face it can be hard work.

[zefarelly]

I was late 20's when I started, admittedly free and single with a reasonable job/salary. I sold my TVR Vixen and built the Cortina . . . I figured, I could race it for less than the cost of an Elise/Cerbera, or the like, road car would cost me to buy/run. I'd also keep my road license!

I think the same still applies, to get involved does not have to be expensive, to be vaguely competitive does not have top be too expensive, to be at the squirty end regularly requires deep pockets.

of course all of the above are relative, and the squirty end can get distorted from the normal end by too much investment in development, or put another way, moneys no object, but I supposer motor racing has always been like that, until 2 teams have GDP type budgets and the red one infiltrates the rule makers and race organisers

[agricola]

Much of the discussion so far has been on engines, that is only one factor.
Since the 80s computer technology has entered the F1 industry and spread down. Bill Mitchell a proff of maths in the US produces software now a universal too in designing and optimising suspension geometry. http://www.mitchellsoftware.com/ $500 a bargain compared to £100 for a ploughmans lunch at Goodwood.

Of course the temptation for some "restorers" to outdo the opposition proved too great and so computer analysis followed by moving chassis mounts became a way of improving the handling of cars. That and the strengthening, stiffening of chassis etc little hidden plates inside monocoques With no drawings it is very difficult, impossible to police

Of course this can only happen in unscrupulous third world countries you would never see anything like that at Goodwood, where even the paint is original.
The fact that cars we remember as dogs , but which now win races must be down to improved driving and preparation……

[PeterRoss]

10 Tenths very kindly sent me a message on my 80th birthday today so I felt I should contribute something.

I watch historic racing because cars can overtake each other.

Unlike modern F1 where most of the overtaking takes place in the pits, and anyone starting behind the top ten has no hope of getting amongst the leaders, the historic cars (at least those without wings) could always pass the car ahead if the driver/car combination was faster.

OK, the speeds were not as high, but this is of no importance - it is the spectacle that is important, and I like to see the lead changing several times on the same lap.

I realise that a lot of work gets done on engines and suspension to make them go faster than they did in period, but as all the top competitors do this it really does not matter.

I am currently busy finishing the restoration of the Clairmonte Special, and building a replica of the 1952 Lotus Mk VII single seater with Riley engine. I want to see if it would have beaten the Cooper Bristols!

Please let me know if you have 1.5 litre Riley RM gearbox you would sell.

[compte deGraves]

Happy Birthday Peter. At last, somebody who is old enough to have seen me race in period!

[Derwent Motorsp]

The moving on of the date as to what counts as a historic/classic etc is quite a major issue. It is happening in rallying where the "special test" events aimed at the 50s to early 70s cars are now getting pre 81 cars, thus Escorts RSs, Sunbeam Lotus etc which are really much too fast for those type of events. However orgnansers feel they need to have them to keep entry levels up. On the other hand it may be the presence of these cars that is leading to a decline in entries from older cars?
But if you follow the argument that we only race/rally the cars we remember from our 20s, then there would be no VSCC, as we are perhaps 3 generations away from those cars heyday. The VSCC looks very healthy to me.
What is obvious from the more "modern" historic singel seater (F1 and F5000) races is that keeeping them going is an issue (lots of non starters and non finishers) and not many drivers capable of driving them at a competitive speed, even if they can afford to own one!

[Derwent Motorsp]

I did not go this year as a I thought the cost was too high.
I went to all the "Coys" ones and more recently 3 years ago (I think) when there was an Aston feature. Fortunately I was there on both days as the Astons raced on Sunday and then went home. Anyone attending on Sunday found only a handful of Aston's in ther "special" area!
The issue is that we now have a "promoter" rather than the whole thing being run, as it was by the BRDC (why have they given up organising anything by the way?). Why we need a promoter I don't know but they cost both the competitor and the spectator money. They are in it purely to make money and it may be that the car owners need to be saying something like "We are putting on the show that you are charging people to watch, so what do we get out of it." Entry fees seemed to be rather higher than for other meetings that get few spectators and hence less income for the organising clubs.

[johnh875]

Derwent, I think you are right - historic rallying out here is migrating to later cars and those competitors would otherwise probably be running the older cars if this option was not available. I don't think there are issues though, events are either run similar to modern rallies or mainly navigaitonal (ie non-pace noted). At least in racing the speed issue is not a problem.

Re loss of interest in older cars, you can see that here in the prices fetched by vintage road cars. A good restored "driver" Chev/Ford/Dodge from the 1920's will cost somewhere around $10-15,000, which seems quite cheap to me, and is purely because of a lack of buyers. I'm not talking about immaculate or "special" cars, which obviously cost more.

Al, that is only what I have been told. I agree the settings on US dyno's seem to make higher hp figures than local ones here too.

[zefarelly]

slightly off topic, US figures are calculated differently and always ssemto be higher, they'd have to be wouldn't they!

A promotor, should, optimise and maximise the opportunities and value for both sides, although profit may well be the driving force, I guess people will vote with their feet ultimately, the same goes for all events.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

I did not go this year as a I thought the cost was too high.
I went to all the "Coys" ones and more recently 3 years ago (I think) when there was an Aston feature. Fortunately I was there on both days as the Astons raced on Sunday and then went home. Anyone attending on Sunday found only a handful of Aston's in ther "special" area!
The issue is that we now have a "promoter" rather than the whole thing being run, as it was by the BRDC (why have they given up organising anything by the way?). Why we need a promoter I don't know but they cost both the competitor and the spectator money. They are in it purely to make money and it may be that the car owners need to be saying something like "We are putting on the show that you are charging people to watch, so what do we get out of it." Entry fees seemed to be rather higher than for other meetings that get few spectators and hence less income for the organising clubs.

Quite right Derwent,I was privileged to be asked to drive in that one[Roy Salvadori Tribute] It was a very good grid with some very interesting cars,shame most just seemed to disappear during early afternoon.That section of paddock did attract a fair bit of attention during the weekend.

[Mike Sweeney]

Midgetman said "There's a danger in looking at historics from today's standpoint only. Times have changed and they'll change again....".

How true.

Small comment having read the entire thread this morning (now that's Monday morning boredom!) - there are a lot of posts (not just in this thread but throughout the site) often made by the well-known hardcore members, that appear to be driven by a large ego and a desperate need to make some/any comment.

Some of these comments look to have been made without any consideration to actual fact - particularly with respect to technical matters or documented historical. It can be very boring...and will only serve to turn some people away I'm sure.

Otherwise the debate(s) herein have so far made for amusing reading. Particularly those posts presumably written after a couple of glasses of whatever poison the author favours...

[Al Weyman]

It is happening in rallying where the "special test" events aimed at the 50s to early 70s cars are now getting pre 81 cars, thus Escorts RSs, Sunbeam Lotus etc which are really much too fast for those type of events.

I think the answer there and in the road racing sector as well would be to not allow the homologation specials like the Sunbeam which I believe only produced around 1100 road cars and the rally cars had Jaguar axles!

BTW I totally agree with Peter Ross's comments about overtaking in historics (if I am allowed to call Pre-74's historic), I was having a great race at the weekend till the gear selector dropped off and by the first lap had gone from 7th to 3rd back down to 5th then up to 4th and was racing with a good variety of models from the XJ12, Truimph Dollys, Avenger GT, and a great battle with a BMW CS. Thats why I like the historics as there is variety and different cars performing differently at different tracks and indeed at different sections of the track hence the place swapping so its seldom the same old finishing line up you get in many formula.

[Mike Sweeney]

Hi Al

Post Historics seldom the same old finishing line up....tongue firmly in cheek here...isn't that only when certain Jaguars don't race?

[Al Weyman]

No not at all actually at the weekend he finished 5th in one race 2nd in two and first in the one I lost my gears ;-)

[Mike Sweeney]

Ah, ok. Hope you find the missing bits and better luck next time. What happened to Pete Halford - he used to race a Camaro some years ago - he stilll around?

[Al Weyman]

It took me two minutes to fix it as it was a loose bolt I will lock wire it on now. I last see Pete spectating at Silverstone this year I think he is doing other championships not sure.

[grantp]

There's an interesting post on the VSCC See Red thread that offers another slant on historic racing options. It seems that the event nearly had to be cancelled due to lack of marshals. Let's consider that possibility for a moment in a wider context.

It's one thing haveing enough people inteterested to keep the cars prepared and pay the entry fees but it's another to find the background volunteers to allow events to happen. As someone pointed out the people involved with the club as, generall, not getting any younger so even if they help out with marshalling the pool of availbel (and fit) resoirce will be declining. If the recruitment of younger marshals does not also lead to a good size pool of 'youngsters' prepared to operate for any type of event running meetings may become difficult.

In terms of solutions to that sort of problem I suppose one can either adjust the programmes for the events to appeal to more volunteers (somehow) or pay people to attend. The latter would set an interesting precedent throughout the sport.

More significantly would it also have a major effect on the number of competitors? Would it stretch too many budgets to far? (I am assuming that the costs would be added to the entry fees.) Or are there enough competitors out there with deep enough pockets for Vintage and Historic activity to continue anyway for some time even if the costs increase?

On a parallel line of thought - would a reduced availability of runnable events (should it happen) adversely affect the value of the cars to a degree that would make many owners question their involvement?

Or are the motivating factors entirely different to what I may think they are?

I have no informed opinion so I'm curious about the answers.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by grantp

It seems that the event nearly had to be cancelled due to lack of marshals. Let's consider that possibility for a moment in a wider context.

The VSCC meeting at Mallory a couple of weeks ago was well-marshalled; Mallory has a curfew, Donington doesn't.