FIA Homologation Papers & HTPs

[simon drabble]

Well that has aolved that mystery!! I wondered where that post went...

[slash01]

Hi guys. A friend of mine is looking for Group B CR-X homologation papers.
B-257 & B-281
He wants them for point of reference for his AT Civic.

Also any other Group B papers gladly welcomed by me for a research project I'm working on.

Thanks in advance.

[garyharman]

Gentlemen,

Sorry I'm new to this part of the forum, so are past FIA papers accessable then?

I am trying to help out a "European" owner who has a Marcos Gullwing, and would like to find any related FIA papers as he wants to race the car. He has been told the car he has is modified, and he needs to return it to drum brakes. We know the cars has race with discs, but we need to prove this, and presume this would be covered in the FIA paperwork.

Any pointers of where/how to look details up would be appreciated.

[morninggents]

Try a call to the MSA (01753 765000). I have bought FIA homologation papers from them. Knowing the homologation number would be a help. I don't know if their is a list of homologation numbers anywhere.

[L-G Sjöberg]

The FIA homologation number for the Marcos Gullwing is 33A and for the Fastback 33B.

[garyharman]

Thank you for the Marcos info, most appreciated.

[Stephan123]

Hello,

I hope it my following recommondation will be helpfull to someone. As I´m from Germany the information i could give are from the German DMSB (national motorsport autority) but the importend infos have nothing to do with the language.

Go to dmsb.de
than press infos für aktive
than
the link under Automobilsport
than
press historischer motorsport
than
under technische reglements... the link - technische dukumente-
than
under homoligationen
the einblenden sektion
than
liste ausgelaufene homoligationen deutscher hersteller
or
liste ausgelaufene homoligationen ausländischer(foreign) Hersteller
press the download button from the section (german or foreign car munufakturer)
open or download the dokument

So now we at the intersesting part of the story

There are all cars listet that have had a homoligation and because the most here looking for Appendix K, all the cars with appendix K homoligation.

There is a number in front of each row. This number is the FIA identifikation code
for the homoligation sheed of every single car.

With this number you are able to order the homoligation sheet from the DMSB or directly from the FIA in France oer from you national Motorsport people.

I hope this is a help to someone and sorry that it looks so complicated and please excuse my bad english.

[JRTM]

I have a question please. It concerns the definition of "International" when it comes to eligibility for HTP. In Australia CAMS have this issue for cars that lived their entire life there and in fact were "born" there. They seem to have come to some form of agreement with the FIA.
In Europe, some Irish made cars raced for decades in Ireland or the USA but there seems to be a reluctance to consider this "International". This is especially a problem when the car in question might be one of one!

Any thoughts please - outside of the option of simply not asking for an HTP and going for HSCC papers??

[Mike Bell]

My understanding is that the definition 'International' refers to the status of any particular event, not country it is held in. You have levels from Club, through National to International.......

For example, in period a UK based rally car could have competed in the RAC Rally, which was an International status event, but never in its life left the British Isles. In the FIA's world, it has competed Internationally.

Make sense?

I would add the the requirement for any car applying for HTP to have competed 'Internationally' in period is not set in stone. There are many examples of cars that raced or rallied at a lower level being granted Papers.

[JRTM]

Mike,

That bit I get. However, what about a car that never competed in an "International" event simply because there were no such events? Common experience in Aus and NZ and commoner in Ireland and England that might be obvious. This is mainly an issue for rare or unique cars - large production run cars are easy because someone, somewhere may have driven one in an International event even if it isn't your one. Does that mean the one-off cars are not eligible? Several of them appear at the Revival every year - but then Goodwood has its own view on the world!

[Peter Mallett]

The FIA does have a strange biew on life. The HTC is supposed to be an ID for the car. However they won't recognising it if it has been modified from their version of whatever group it ran in. Even if that was a recognized formula sanctioned by the FIA. Go figure as they say.

[Stephan123]

As far as I know is the FIA regulation the following:

An international Race concerning the HTP is any event that was run under the period FIA internatinal homoligated classes.
The car had not to leave the country for this. Most FIA racing series where run over europe for example.
There where also many national series without matching the FIA regulations.
The FIA does not careobout this history for getting an HTP.

The thing is that there are quite a few cars out there which you can´t even find in the FIA homoligation list and they do have an HTP.
If you ask the FIA about that you want get a proper answer.

Depending in what race class you wanted to start it´s much easier to get an national Race pass. In Germany this is called Wagenpass.
This enable you to run in a few different race series but non you need the HTP for.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by JRTM

Mike,

That bit I get. However, what about a car that never competed in an "International" event simply because there were no such events? Common experience in Aus and NZ and commoner in Ireland and England that might be obvious. This is mainly an issue for rare or unique cars.

IMHO the individual case needs to be presented with all the historical info that can be found. Frustrating bit is that you have to pay fees up front with no cast iron guarantee.......

[JRTM]

or frequently any common sense. I once owned a McLaren M1B and they told me the car was the wrong rear track. I asked where they got their measurements from and they told me it was a recent reference book about McLaren cars. When I told them that the car used in that book to produce the measurements and pictures was in fact MY car - the one and same car they were now disputing- they seemed unamused! Sometimes one wonders about such people!!

[terence]

Quite rightly so in some cases! Four and a bit years of trying to get papers for an HRG that ran in the 1949 Spa 24hrs.All paperwork submitted, all means a book full of programs and result sheets.Endless emails/telephone calls only to be told various lies about the papers being "on top of my desk" was the favorite from the book of excuses.
And the excuses came from about three different "inspectors", one of whom was more content with playing on his yacht
BUT, we got there in the end.Really helpful German guy sorted out the mess created in the uk and after a few week of sorting you get the call "your papers are in the post".Guess what, they arrived next day.

[kickstart]

Just heard that the Marcos 1800 is no longer being granted papers - bit of shame from my point of view as I have always loved quirky British cars
Once homologation has been revoked does this mean even those cars with current papers have them removed ?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by kickstart

Just heard that the Marcos 1800 is no longer being granted papers - bit of shame from my point of view as I have always loved quirky British cars
Once homologation has been revoked does this mean even those cars with current papers have them removed ?

As far as I know, yes. If Louis reads your question I'm sure he can give the definitive FIA answer!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by kickstart

Just heard that the Marcos 1800 is no longer being granted papers

Any idea why? Seems a bit odd to let something race for years and then revoke the papers.

Wonder what effect this will have on values if the cars are no longer eligible for the FIA events?

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by kickstart

Just heard that the Marcos 1800 is no longer being granted papers - bit of shame from my point of view as I have always loved quirky British cars
Once homologation has been revoked does this mean even those cars with current papers have them removed ?

My guess is existing can live the life of their papers?

I love the small volume UK cars, but most of them never went anywhere near a proper International race . . . . and most marques never produced 2 cars the same!

[Mike Bell]

My take is that the car was never homologated in period, and was retrospectively issued with papers in relatively modern times, using info agreed between the FIA and interested parties. Given the performance of the cars, I think this has ruffled more than a few feathers over the last few years! If they'd just chugged round and 'made up the grids' no doubt they would have been welcomed for helping broaden the variety of makes racing. No idea if it is the case, but could it be that FIA are wanting changes to the spec?

Edit, just read Joe's post. FIA can withdraw papers any time, if they have the desire and enough reason to do so. It's happened in the last year for another marque and model.....

[midgetman]

Whoops sorry wrong thread

[Brian A]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

My take is that the car was never homologated in period, and was retrospectively issued with papers in relatively modern times, using info agreed between the FIA and interested parties. Given the performance of the cars, I think this has ruffled more than a few feathers over the last few years! If they'd just chugged round and 'made up the grids' no doubt they would have been welcomed for helping broaden the variety of makes racing. No idea if it is the case, but could it be that FIA are wanting changes to the spec?

Edit, just read Joe's post. FIA can withdraw papers any time, if they have the desire and enough reason to do so. It's happened in the last year for another marque and model.....

MIke - that is exactly as I understand it. No International history in period and now just too quick. Other cars only had domestic races in period and have been failed to get papers, so this could just be a regularisation of the situation. Not sure what has been the catalyst though?????

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Brian A

Not sure what has been the catalyst though?????

This is of course pure speculation on my part- disgruntled owners of exotica with big engines and big running costs being beaten by a plastic kit car from a lower capacity class powered by an old Volvo boat anchor?

Even with a normal homologated car- push the envelope too far, make the cars too competitive, hone them with a bit of modern tech, and questions will get asked. Then the FIA (likely via National associations) will start taking an interest.....

[zefarelly]

I understand there are other things going on behind the scenes to try and draw lines in the sand . . . . who knows, maybe the seeds of sensibility are being sewn . . . .

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I understand there are other things going on behind the scenes to try and draw lines in the sand . . . . who knows, maybe the seeds of sensibility are being sewn . . . .

That's as amusing as some of Bauble's jokes!!