Is JV the biggest hypocrite of them all ?

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by garcon
[i]"The antics in Austria and at Indianapolis this year involving Michael, Rubens and everyone behind the scenes at Ferrari were embarrassing.

"Rubens was stupid to wait until the last 10 metres to gift Michael the win in Austria,

"Then Michael was really stupid when he pushed Rubens on to the top step of the podium because he was embarrassed and worried about the booing [from the fans].

"That just turned the sport into a joke. It was an insult to all of us who work really hard.

Do you think a riot would have broken out at Austria this year if Michael hadn't done what he did on the podium, i.e taken the top step for himself? Or is the security too strong for that? If a riot had broken out, JV would be saying "He should have given Rubens the trophy, that would have stopped all that chaos."

[garcon]

YM, you've quoted me quoting JV there. That's what HE said.

As far as I'm concerned, what happened on the podium was irrelevant - it was the last 20 metres of the race people objected to. Ferrari subsequently accepted that.

But you're right - JV probably would have said "he should have given Rubens the trophy". Whatever SchM does is wrong in JV's world...

[Jordi]

You are supposing Jacques would also have bashed Schumacher... just supposing though.

Y'all know Jacques does not like TGF. So it should come to no surprise!

[Wrex]

I see JV has decided to take over from Irvine as the 'washed up hack with the big mouth'.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the new champion-elect Formula One 'loud mouth embarrasment' world champion.

[fousto]

right Wrex you are probably so exciting that you throw a party at the Library!!

[senna12]

Only the best drivers can generate 7+ page threads.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by fousto
right Wrex you are probably so exciting that you throw a party at the Library!!

:confused: What an odd little comment from an odd little man.

[Tye]

Red,

At least he should motivate the team to pull together as a team,in the same direction.

Again we have an aspect of the Villeneuve/Schumacher success comparison that needs some light.

It isn't Villeneuve's fault that the members of the team aren't pulling in the same direction.I found that the continuing absence of Reynard nothing but a detriment to the teams efforts.The situation was further put under stress when Villeneuve publicly stated that Reynard was often absent from his duties.If you look a little closer you would find that Reynard had stated from the beginning that he would be unable to be with the team at all times.Again,this point has nothing to do with Villeneuve.The tension and troubles that plagued BAR was a result of the personnel not working together for whatever reasons they may be.Villeneuve isn't going to waive a magic wand over them(Pollock,Reynard and Oastler)and have a changed team over night.On a fundamental basis,if people don't get along or choose not to get along there is nothing a racing driver can do about it.I hope this isn't of any surprise to you,personality differences of any kind are everywhere you look.Basics of life.

It is generally known that Pollock has limited knowledge as to the workings of an F1 car.Pollock's strengths within BAR were to secure the BAT sponsorship deal,the Honda engine deal,and the hiring of Willis.Willis's input will be judged shortly.Pollock has definately pulled his weight in his area.

In Schumacher's case the team has been together for many years,they work as a team.The team doesn't get along just because Michael wishes them to,he has been fortunate in the sense that they all get along reasonably well and focus their efforts into developing the car for Michael.I will take this a step further and say that the successful relationship extends to Bridgestone,who as we all know by know,exclusively develop tyres for Michael,and him only.Is it any wonder that the Bridgestone trucks have a nice cozy spot beside Ferrari at the race weekends.

Time for a new bed Michael.

Tye

[JohnSSC]

That's cool! JV can't be blamed for BAR being a mess and not working together. Michael can't take any credit for Ferrari because they have been together for so long?? As that great philospher Steve Martin said: "Well, excuuuse me!" Let's think on this for a moment. BAR have been together now what, 4 years and have achieved about as many podiums as Ferrari achieved wins in the first 4 years Michael was with them. I can see what JV can do for your team.

That is exactly why BAR has problems: JV does not put in the effort to be part of the team. Tires or not, contract or not, Michael is very much a part of Scuderia Ferrari. That is why he will be WDC in '03 and JV will be scanning the "Drivers for Hire" ads in the paper.

I guess it is in Ferrari's contract with Bridgestone that JV be divisive and uncooperative with the BAR "team."

[Valve Bounce]

That's a good analysis Tye - good post. Sorry JohnSSC, but you seem to gloss over what Tye said and then poke fun by quoting a schmuck. While I concede that SchM is a great driver, to think that he can take credit for Ferrari management cohesion and success is a little naive. SchM doesn't run the Ferrari team; Ferrari knows his talent and focusses on him to continue their success. There's a world of difference in that.

[Red]

Tye... Of course it's not JV fault that he cannot weld a team. It's nobody's fault. However, it could have been his merit if he could. Well, he can't.

Originally posted by senna12
Only the best drivers can generate 7+ page threads.

Indeed. This thread was supposed to discuss Villeneuve but instead we're back on Michael Schumacher. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
SchM doesn't run the Ferrari team

Hmmm, you posted thoughts in the past quiet contrary to this statement Valve. Or does he only 'run' Ferrari when team orders' or anything that you want to pin on him occurs?

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think that I intimated at any stage that SchM ran, as in managed the Ferrari Team. My assertions were regarding reports that SchM asked John Toad to order Rubens to move over. It would be unrealistic for anyone to assume that the drivers have anything to do with the overall management of any F1 team, whether it be Jacques or SchM. However, the way a driver melds with the team will have a great influence on the success or otherwise of the teams performance. In this regard I would say that SchM fits into the team environment much more readily than Jacques.
I fully agree with what Tye has posted above. I think he has posted a very good post, and has provided a great insight to the problems at BAR over the years.

[z2252314]

he has been fortunate in the sense that they all get along reasonably well and focus their efforts into developing the car for Michael

Any why do all the staff focus their attention on Michael? Its futile trying to convince you because you'll always beleive Michael's achievements have been through 'fortune' and a disproportionate serving of luck.
One Final question....
Why was Jean Alesi(A driver many rate highly), unable to win with Rory Byrne, Ross Brawn, a championship winning team and an engine which powered the the 96' champion Williams team? He basically inherited Michael's championship team and seat yet he(or the team) underperformed miserably in 96. Meanwhile, Michael was able to bring home 3 wins without Brawn, Byrne etc while rebuilding the Ferrari team. Luck may win you a race or two, it certainly wont get you 5 WDC and 65 wins. BAR have been woeful the past few years and Jaques, as part of the team, must share in the responsibility.

[JohnSSC]

VB. Perhaps I did miss Tye's point, but methinks you missed mine! JV could act as an agent for cohesion within the team. Just as I believe Michael has for Ferrari. JV has either chosen not to bother or he does not have the personality to do so. I team is more than the aggregate of the individual parts. There has to be a chemistry if you will. To make a Football analogy, France was clearly the inferior team (on paper) to Brazil in '96, yet they handily defeated Brazil. Why? Team cohesion and focus.

And yes, using a quote from a comedian was simply my way of trying to keep things from being too serious - but comedians do have a way of expressing at times what philosophers fail to grasp!

JV, imho, is hypocritical in that he criticizes others for not operating a team appropriately while he himself has demonstrated an uncanny aversion to teamwork himself.

[Valve Bounce]

JohnSSC, I agree with your first paragraph.
Your second paragraph is open to debate because there was a serious problem with Ronaldo before the game (don't know what still).
I don't agree with your last paragraph. I don't see anything hypocritical in his comments at all. He was simply calling it as he saw it.

[JohnSSC]

VB, even without Ronaldo it should have been a Brazilian win. Anyway, as always you make some points back concerning expressing vs being hypocritical. Perhaps I expect too much, such has my disappointment been with JV.



But a new year beckons and who knows what pleasant surprises there will be?

[Valve Bounce]

We are all disappointed with Jacques' lack of a good decent drive.
Who knows what the New Year brings? Maybe the Honda will be a better engine/car. Maybe their test driver will pull his finger out and do some impressive stuff. Who knows.

[Tye]

Z2252314,

Why was Jean Alesi unable to win with Rory Byrne,Ross Brawn,a championship winning team and an engine which powered the '96 champion Williams team?

It is funny how you focus on Jean Alesi and not Gerhard Berger,unlike Schumacher,Alesi and Berger are part of a team where both drivers are treated equal.I think in the case of the Benetton team you must look at both drivers.

The most important reason technically,was the very fact that the Benetton team focused all their efforts on Schumacher winning in 1995 and neglected development on the 1996 car which they paid for in 1996.Benetton had complained about this very problem,which was due to putting too much focus on the 1995 season.It was quite clear that after Schumacher had signed on to drive for Ferrari the Benetton team focused on giving Michael the best chance of winning in 1995,at the expense of the 1996 car.

The Benetton team did score 5 or 6 second place finishes in 1996 which could have been victories had luck played into their hands.Berger should have won at Hockenheim in 1996 had it not been for an engine failure with the chequered flag in his sights.When Berger and Alesi first arrived at Benetton they found the car undriveable to say the least,and of the two,it suited Alesi more than Berger.It does pose problems for drivers who come into a team where the previous years car was built solely around one driver as it was with Schumacher at Benetton in 1995.A similar parallel can be drawn with the situation at McLaren a number of years before.Keke Rosberg had moved from Williams to McLaren to partner Alain Prost,and soon found out that the team revolved around Alain Prost.The car was deliberately built around Prost's very individual driving style,much the same way the Benetton was built around Schumacher's style.The designer at McLaren at the time was John Barnard who had stated that it was up to Keke to adapt his style to the car.He never did manage it,and Prost had went on to win the title and left Keke without a race win.How different things could have been.I'm sure that Schumacher's results wouldn't be as good if he was forced to drive a car that wasn't to his complete liking,this is common sense. It was much the same situation with Berger and Alesi,as the two found the car undriveable due to Schumacher's uniques style.Everyone thinks that just because a driver wins a title in a car that surely so can anyone else.If you think that then you have limited knowledge of racing.

I'm sure you aren't aware of the fact that Berger came down with pneumonia in the beginning of the year which hampered him in the first half of the season.Thus,it was of no surprise to anyone that his second half was much more productive than the first.Berger also stated that it took the Benetton team a long time to realize that Michael's way wasn't the only way of doing things.It should come as no surprise that different drivers like different things.Ferrari sure as hell didn't wait that long to accomodate Michael now did they?When the Benetton team started to change some things to suit Berger everything went much better,and don't forget that Berger was some 37 years old at the time,past his prime I'd say.

JohnSSC,

while he himself has demonstrated an uncanny aversion to teamwork himself

What exactly do you mean by your quote,what element or elements of teamwork are you referring to?

Tye

[JohnSSC]

Tye, I just have never had the sense, even in his CART days that JV worked within the team - as a part of it. He came, he drove, he conquered - IF he had the car to do it. If not, evryone else better get to work to give me a better car. JV does not put in the miles that Michael does. That is the work ethic he lacks which is part (only a part) of why BAR is nowhere.