Andretti F1 - 2025

[chillibowl]

is this final or just another phase of a process we know little about?

[Mike Harte]

And F1 is now officially not a sport. See quote (from Motorsport.com) (my bold):

Speaking about the decision-making process last summer, F1 CEO Stefano Domenicali said: "As we always said, we need to make sure that the decision is right for the business. And this is what I think is the duty of the FIA and us together, that has to be taken.”

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Tourer

One thing that jumps out to me is that Andretti was invited to meet with FOM in December but chose not to do so - don't know why not but that seems extraordinary given the stakes being played for.

thats odd for sure!

curious if they will reapply for 2028?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is this final or just another phase of a process we know little about?

Seems to be final (for now) but leaves the door open for 2028, which is when all Andretti & GM statements have said that GM would have its own power unit ready.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thats odd for sure!

curious if they will reapply for 2028?

Very odd - might even go so far as saying very unprofessional. Guess we'll find out soon whether they'll have a crack at 2028.

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And F1 is now officially not a sport. See quote (from Motorsport.com) (my bold):

It's both a sport and a business, as all professional sport tends to be. The various professional football codes, cricket, cycling etc etc. are all run as both sports and businesses, as is the case with F1.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I feel F1 have shot themselves in the foot over this. Liberty wants to ''grow'' F1 in the US and adding Andretti, with it's motorsport's heritage, would have been ideal.

By the time 2028 comes round, will the current US interest in F1 still be there, or will the novelty have worn off? I feel the anticipation of Andretti entering F1 would have helped maintain the interest but I suspect it will now gradually wear off, as the hype will now be difficult to maintain.

[Richard C]

Sadly, I am not surprised, but I am disappointed. What is interesting is I suspect a majority of fans would like to see them join.

Originally Posted by Tourer

One thing that jumps out to me is that Andretti was invited to meet with FOM in December but chose not to do so - don't know why not but that seems extraordinary given the stakes being played for.

No doubt there is more to this story.

Originally Posted by Tourer

Clearly the majority of the concerns are around power unit, so door left open for re-application once GM has its own unit but there are also a number of references to Andretti being a "novice" manfucturer (which is accurate) and that in particular, the plan to build a 2025 car and then a 2026 car to new rules is indicative to FOM that Andretti doesn't understand the difficulty of doing so.

I think most all of that is just hand waving. Given the justifications, I think few "privateer" style organizations would make the grade. They clearly are gatekeeping on any non-manufacture from joining F1. What is also interesting is that many of the arguments against this entry would exclude most all existing teams except for those owned my a manufacture.

Other item from the FOM statement...

Our assessment did not involve any consultation with the current F1 teams.

I can expect there was no "official" polling of the existing teams, but otherwise I roll my eyes at this. The credibility here is near zero for me.

We do not believe that there is a basis for any new applicant to be admitted in 2025 given that this would involve a novice entrant building two completely different cars in its first two years of existence.

Frankly I agree regarding 2025, but 2026 is the perfect entry point.

While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around.

Wow! Just Wow!

Originally Posted by Tourer

I guess that we can expect statements from both Andretti and GM in due course & part of me feels like ordering in the popcorn.

Same here. I feel this is not over. Is legal challenges next? I frankly hope so. This entire thing is F1 shooting itself in the foot.

Richard

[Greem]

That comment about the name or brand adding value and vice versa... That's just tone deaf. I do appreciate that a part of the application mentioned the Andretti name and the history but the response just feels unnecessary to me.

It also, dare I say, feels very very European.

Personally I think this will be looked back on in later years as a Big Moment for Formula 1 and by extension the FIA.

[Akrapovic]

If we're going to talk about if brands "add value" can we have a discussion on why the Nurburgring Grand Prix circuit is not on the calendar, but Miami is? Or why we don't have Hockenheim but we have Saudi Arabia?

Or maybe it's not really about brand value and its about gatekeeping.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Tourer

It's both a sport and a business, as all professional sport tends to be. The various professional football codes, cricket, cycling etc etc. are all run as both sports and businesses, as is the case with F1.

right, its been both now for a really really long time.

but i do see Mike's point though that this is perhaps going to far by prioritizing major name brands over names and people who do have very tangible connections to motorsport history.

its almost like they are saying they would love to add in the GM/Cadillac brand name but from their point of view the "Andretti' name brand is worthless to them.

rather, come back when you are a GM works team!

thats harsh but as is the case with those that do not value their own history they may be doomed to find themselves suffering the consequences of ignoring it.

this sport is only ever one manu shareholders/board meeting/earnings call away from that manu deciding to pull out so you need privateers to steady the ship when that happens.

[chillibowl]

anyways, if they really wanted to compete in the superbowl of racing they apparently should have named their entry Swift-Andretti!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

anyways, if they really wanted to compete in the superbowl of racing they apparently should have named their entry Swift-Andretti!

They'd have a big fan base with all those Swifties.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but i do see Mike's point though that this is perhaps going to far by prioritizing major name brands over names and people who do have very tangible connections to motorsport history.

My contention is that there is no mention of the sporting side of F1, and apparently no consideration of what value Andretti's entrance may bring to the racing. I fully understand that they need to ensure that it was a thoroughly serious endeavour and that there were sufficient funds available to sustain a multi-year campaign.

But that doesn't appear to be of any importance here, and it sadly confirms one of the reasons why I have lost my passion for F1 because it has now become all about "me, me, me" and not what the paying public might want to see.

And it really saddens me.

[S griffin]

There were so many positives to Andretti joining. More opportunities for drivers, a great name in the sport, a new manufacturer joining and encouraging others to join. But no. FOM decide it’s not good for business to allow them to come in. I just wonder why they feel this elitist attitude is going to help them. Really short sighted decision here

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I think most all of that is just hand waving. Given the justifications, I think few "privateer" style organizations would make the grade. They clearly are gatekeeping on any non-manufacture from joining F1. What is also interesting is that many of the arguments against this entry would exclude most all existing teams except for those owned my a manufacture.

I actually think that if another possible team had a deal with (say) Renault on a long-term basis, that would be fine but the point being made by FOM is that with GM coming in, any interim engine supplier to Andretti would be concerned about GM having access to its IP and as a result, provide Andretti the "bare minimum" package, in the opinion of FOM rendering Andretti uncompetitive.

[porsche962fan]

this **** drama is more enjoyable than the actual races

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

anyways, if they really wanted to compete in the superbowl of racing they apparently should have named their entry Swift-Andretti!

Not being from North America, took me a while to understand what you mean. I've seen a headline somewhere about Ms. Swift having some connection to one of the teams in the superbowl but never took all that much notice.

I don't think I'd describe F1 as the superbowl of racing personally but I know the superbowl is big in North America so get the reference. Maybe Andretti could go all-out on the celebrity partnerships and name the team Swift-Andretti-Cadillac-Cruise.

[Alan52]

This is a disgraceful ,if entirely predictable ,decision on every level.
A cartel protecting itself.Liberty scared of the teams.The teams unable to look beyond their next financial reporting period.
If I was Andretti and GM I’d decide that F1 is not worth the aggravation.Go out with a guns blazing media blitz about the greed and hypocrisy of Liberty and F1.Forget about 2028 they are just stringing them along.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

My contention is that there is no mention of the sporting side of F1, and apparently no consideration of what value Andretti's entrance may bring to the racing. I fully understand that they need to ensure that it was a thoroughly serious endeavour and that there were sufficient funds available to sustain a multi-year campaign.

But that doesn't appear to be of any importance here, and it sadly confirms one of the reasons why I have lost my passion for F1 because it has now become all about "me, me, me" and not what the paying public might want to see.

And it really saddens me.

With you now - remember of course that FIA looked at the sporting and technical side and FOM's role was to look at the commercial side. FIA issued a brief statement without much detail so we don't know how much weight was put on various sporting and tech aspects.

The FOM has laid out its reasons for rejection in a lot of detail and to me, it looks like it had little faith in Andretti's "value" until GM is fully on board with its own power unit. None of us have seen what Andretti put forward to FOM & none of us know why Andretti didn't meet with FOM when invited to do so.

Whilst I know what you mean, that this feels like "me, me, me" I'm looking at it a little differently and thinking that maybe the Andretti resources (both financial and physical) aren't quite as up to the job as Andretti has claimed - PR or claims thrown out there are one thing, confirmed information in a detailed submission another thing entirely & none of us has seen the submission.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I actually think that if another possible team had a deal with (say) Renault on a long-term basis, that would be fine but the point being made by FOM is that with GM coming in, any interim engine supplier to Andretti would be concerned about GM having access to its IP and as a result, provide Andretti the "bare minimum" package, in the opinion of FOM rendering Andretti uncompetitive.

The IP aspect was actually listed in the FOM response. But I question the magnitude of that risk. There are customer teams already. The "know how" specifics remain hidden by power unit manufactures and are not provided to the customer teams, however no doubt if you have a customer engine deal, you will both have some non-public operational/operation details as well you will figure some things out. But... this exists across the entire grid today. Lets say you are McLaren today and you are using a Mercedes engine, nothing is stopping you from going to Ferrari tomorrow and some of what you know flows to the new engine partner. Clearly there are NDA and other IP protections in place. I mean you can't be as obvious as Nigel Stepney level flow of information, but IMHO they are over blowing the risk. It is being used as an excuse.

The aspect of Andretti running a Renault with lesser support from Renault and this resulting in Andretti being at a disadvantage. It is extremely unlikely that Andretti would perform well in their first 1-3 years regardless of the support from any interim power unit manufacture. So this is just stating the obvious and using it as an excuse. The FOM response also call out performance concerns and risk they will perform poorly. Someone has to be in last place. Its just another example of an excuse with no logical basis.

We are also talking about either a current engine specification (which is frozen) or a 2026+ engine specification which is more and more "spec" across power unit manufactures. That spec is defined from the start to not require extensive initial knowledge to get up and running. Plus significant limits on R&D capabilities. People should read the 2026+ power unit budget cap specifics. I am not saying these engines will have parity out of the gate, but they are more commodity items than people think. What is likely to be the differentiator will be the hybrid systems and those are likely to be much harder to "reverse engineer" via someone like Andretti watching how they work and then taking info to GM. I think for the most part they may be black boxes to customer teams. Again, a nugget of truth in all of this, but it is just being used as an excuse to say "no".

What I think is the REAL issue here and they somewhat speak to this, but don't outright say it is in their paragraph 10... Andretti is promising to bring GM, but GM actually providing a power unit is delayed. I think the fear is... They give Andretti the entry (as they want manufactures and are expecting to get GM), but then at some later date (a year or two in) GM backs out for whatever reason. So FOM has given Andretti an entry, but didn't get GM. You read between the lines and frankly I think the core of this issue is that Andretti is not bringing GM in on day #1. I actually think that if Andretti was bringing a new power unit supplier and didn't need an interim power unit supplier it might have been approved. If the need to bring a manufacture is a requirement for entry, then if I were FOM, this is a real risk. However... I think that requirement is absolutely the wrong focus for FOM. It also effectively says it does not value the existing teams who are using customer engines, but they are stuck with those teams.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And F1 is now officially not a sport.

Of course. Surely that is the case ever since it was a fixed number of franchises and pre-qualifying was no longer open to any entrant, so at least 1993 or so (I'm unsure of the exact year).

The decision is of little surprise. FOM no doubt remind Andretti Global they were welcome to purchase Manor Racing or Caterham or another insolvent entry previously.

I would like 26 cars out there of course, but what can you do? Andretti Global did not buy an entry when they weren't worth much and FOM and the other teams are still not keen to pay prize money beyond 10th place in the WCC (hence why those 11th-12th-13th placed WCC teams tended to go bankrupt in the first place).

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Go out with a guns blazing media blitz about the greed and hypocrisy of Liberty and F1.Forget about 2028 they are just stringing them along.

Why doesn't Andretti Global just start a breakaway series?

Formula One Management does not want you, so start your own series? Perhaps there will be like-minded teams from elsewhere in F2 or LMP2 or SRO GT who would like to upgrade but are not eligible to currently join Formula One?

Or does Andretti Global only want to race in Formula One due to its profile, rather than for the sporting reasons of wanting to build and race Grand Prix cars? If so you can see FOM's point...

I would really like to see the maximum capacity 26 cars out there, but there aren't even 26 cars in Australian domestic touring cars for the same commercial reasons -- and that's touring cars that is meant to have 32 to 55 cars on the grid, capacity permitting!

Originally Posted by chillibowl

thats odd for sure!

curious if they will reapply for 2028?

Andretti's breakaway series could already be well underway by then!

There's no German Grand Prix, there's no French Grand Prix, there's no Malaysian Grand Prix... There are so many potential events at traditional road circuits, even if alternatives names like "Hockenheim Grand Prix" or "Magny Cours Grand Prix" or "Kuala Lumpur Grand Prix" would have to be used.

Originally Posted by steve_r

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...erical-grounds

Denied entry.

FFS. F1 is officially a closed shop.

So start a breakaway Grand Prix series similar to the proposed 2009 Grand Prix World Championship? The solution -- if Andretti's goal is merely to build and race Grand Prix cars and not to leverage Formula One's commercial profile -- seems obvious, no?

FOM has made it clear as day over and over again that Andretti Global are not wanted and not welcome, so I don't understand why Andretti Global kept pushing forward instead of planning an alternative Grand Prix series to race their and other rejected applicants Grand Prix cars. They could even use wailing V10s or V12s running on carbon-neutral synthetic fuel!

There is nothing to say that the AIACR European Grand Prix Championship and subsequently the World Driver's Championship should be the only major Grand Prix car championship in the world. The World Championship is not even technically the same championship as the fabled European Grand Prix Championship, it just has the same events like the Italian Grand Prix, Monaco Grand Prix etc.

"Bridgestone Presents the Grand Prix World Series powered by Cadillac"
Sound familiar? Bridgestone were also rejected by Formula One Management, despite offering to pay more than Pirelli, you don't see such a fuss as with Andretti Global.

[Tourer]

Martin Brundle's thoughts from Sky's YouTube channel.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

What I think is the REAL issue here and they somewhat speak to this, but don't outright say it is in their paragraph 10... Andretti is promising to bring GM, but GM actually providing a power unit is delayed. I think the fear is... They give Andretti the entry (as they want manufactures and are expecting to get GM), but then at some later date (a year or two in) GM backs out for whatever reason. So FOM has given Andretti an entry, but didn't get GM. You read between the lines and frankly I think the core of this issue is that Andretti is not bringing GM in on day #1. I actually think that if Andretti was bringing a new power unit supplier and didn't need an interim power unit supplier it might have been approved. If the need to bring a manufacture is a requirement for entry, then if I were FOM, this is a real risk. However... I think that requirement is absolutely the wrong focus for FOM. It also effectively says it does not value the existing teams who are using customer engines, but they are stuck with those teams.

You could be on the money here - there were of course many rumours that the GM involvement was some kind of badging exercise or not "real", although GM has refuted this.

Maybe such concerns were raised by FOM in their questions and Andretti didn't give enough info to ally those concerns? Certainly manufacturers have been fickle in the past and could be so again, whereas waiting until GM has its own engine is a stronger commitment and one that FOM feels better about.

It still beggars belief (to me anyway) that Andretti didn't take the opportunity to meet with FOM when invited - it's quite possible that some or all of the stumbling blocks could have been dealt with at that meeting - extraordinary.

[Richard C]

We race to compete
We race for the exhilaration
We race because it's in our blood
But to change our sport for the better
And change the world for good
We have to race for something bigger
For frontline workers
For inclusion and equality
For a more sustainable future
We race as one

Maybe it should be "We race as Money"

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Anyway, last I heard Andretti are possibly now going to be accepted, but will be pushed back as far as possible - maybe even to 2027-2029!

Well, well, well, seems I wasn't so far from it after all.