Has "sportsmanship" gone from F1? - Page 7

**Adam43** · 8 Apr 2013, 22:13 (Ref:3231185)

How far it went before.

**Aysedasi** · 8 Apr 2013, 22:23 (Ref:3231189)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redblurr

What on earth are you on about?

It's been happening since the year dot. The difference now is that people get upset about it. As Adam says, once upon a time, if the #1's car broke, the #2 got pulled in to hand his car over.....

**Adam43** · 8 Apr 2013, 22:27 (Ref:3231192)

Now that's real multi12! None of this modern rubbish.

OT, but I miss drivers swapping cars at Le Mans. It was another layer of interest to see what a team would do.

**Born Racer** · 8 Apr 2013, 22:32 (Ref:3231196)

There's an interesting point there - only being three decades old, how did people used to react? It's more difficult to tell in terms of the comparative lack of media, but did noone ever kick up any fuss or disagreement?

Beetle · 9 Apr 2013, 01:38 (Ref:3231256)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

There's an interesting point there - only being three decades old, how did people used to react? It's more difficult to tell in terms of the comparative lack of media, but did noone ever kick up any fuss or disagreement?

They probably did, but everything is blown out of proportion in the media these days and most of us are susceptible to it.

**Aysedasi** · 9 Apr 2013, 05:44 (Ref:3231299)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

There's an interesting point there - only being three decades old, how did people used to react? It's more difficult to tell in terms of the comparative lack of media, but did noone ever kick up any fuss or disagreement?

At Le Mans? No, not really. I only remember Eliseo Salazar getting upset in 1990 when he was turfed (without having driven) from (what would be) the winning Jaguar in favour of Martin Brundle.

nicanary · 9 Apr 2013, 09:38 (Ref:3231391)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

It's been happening since the year dot. The difference now is that people get upset about it. As Adam says, once upon a time, if the #1's car broke, the #2 got pulled in to hand his car over.....

They get upset because a lot of modern fans look upon GP racing as entertainment, rather than as a sport which can be entertaining. They like things to be formulaic, just as Bernie ordered.

Remember those blisteringly-hot Argentine GPs, when drivers would almost faint and need ice baths? Not uncommon for a car to finish having had 4 different drivers during the race. (Although Fangio managed to cope - cool as always).

Paradise City · 9 Apr 2013, 11:11 (Ref:3231437)

There's no way to ban team orders really. Any ban on the sporting statute books is only going to result in sowing the seeds for future damaging scandals anyway. The only way to do it, is to mandate single car teams. I don't see that happening of course.

But bar something like that, it's as much as part of the sport as wheels are.

**Born Racer** · 9 Apr 2013, 13:03 (Ref:3231482)

If we do have acceptance of team orders, I'm glad they're legal now as I disliked the blatant acceptable cheating.

I do want to see all teams go down the number 1 driver route though. They needs to decide at what point in the campaign to do so. I suppose that's part of the fun and the team's gamble, but McLaren (for instance) decide not only to not favour at the beginning of the season but keep doing so until the number 2 is out the title race. To win a drivers' championship, they need to/ ought to do what Ferrari do and Red Bull usually do.

**Bononi** · 9 Apr 2013, 13:55 (Ref:3231501)

It won't happen at Ferrari, they have a clear #1 and unless something very bad happen to him, they will allow the #2 fight for WDC.

**Adam43** · 9 Apr 2013, 15:37 (Ref:3231551)

I like those differences in teams.

**Born Racer** · 9 Apr 2013, 15:57 (Ref:3231561)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

I like those differences in teams.

It is a bit like a football team playing with 14 men, though.

**Adam43** · 9 Apr 2013, 16:21 (Ref:3231574)

Is it? Not for me. That is two very different sports.

Of course chose one driver and you also run the risk of only having one in the title fight, but you run your team you make your choice. I am sure that they don't run their team for someone else to make the choice. Freedom!

Marbot · 9 Apr 2013, 19:04 (Ref:3231645)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

It won't happen at Ferrari, they have a clear #1 and unless something very bad happen to him, they will allow the #2 fight for WDC.

Like, being out-qualified by your #2 driver in the first couple of races?

**Bononi** · 9 Apr 2013, 20:56 (Ref:3231709)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

Like, being out-qualified by your #2 driver in the first couple of races?

Like the screwed pit stop strategy...

**chunterer** · 11 Apr 2013, 11:21 (Ref:3232450)

My take is that those who show sportsmanship (or rather used to show it) are likely to be doing so with one eye on the future, as in future within a team, or are simply obeying team orders as in their contract.

Those who do not show 'sportsmanship' are the ultimate single minded slefish drivers who are purely out for individual gain. Or in extreme cases out to scupper either their teammates or teams gain.

There are numerous examples of all of these most of which have been exhuastively documented.

The Stirling Moss epidode in Casablanca is an obvious one, but was that really sportsmanship or was the other driver just told to give up his car?!

garcon · 11 Apr 2013, 11:23 (Ref:3232451)

I must admit, I much prefer Vettel when he's being honest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22106490

Knowlesy · 11 Apr 2013, 12:31 (Ref:3232485)

See I think that is pathetic.

If he had come out and said that originally, fine. I wouldn't have agreed with it, but OK. But to do so after apologising repeatedly is daft and, far from making him 'honest' makes him look an even bigger liar.

You can tell his best mate is TGF.

Sodemo · 11 Apr 2013, 12:40 (Ref:3232486)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

See I think that is pathetic.

If he had come out and said that originally, fine. I wouldn't have agreed with it, but OK. But to do so after apologising repeatedly is daft and, far from making him 'honest' makes him look an even bigger liar.

You can tell his best mate is TGF.

I think his position is quite close to being untenable. Of course, Red Bull would never sack him (I think) as he is one of the best drivers on the grid, but his attitude stinks. I think if it was another team, perhaps in another series, he would be given the boot.

**bella** · 11 Apr 2013, 12:43 (Ref:3232487)

thing is, did he actually lie or contradict himself directly in either of those statements - the apology or the "yeah i'd totally do it again" confessional? his actual words, not the journalists interpretation or the headline.

garcon · 11 Apr 2013, 12:56 (Ref:3232494)

I think the mishandling has been by the team rather than Vettel himself.

Everything he said in the immediate aftermath was what he'd been told to say.

What he says above is him being honest, probably after thinking, "What's the worst that can happen? What's Horner going to do - sack me?!"

Knowlesy · 11 Apr 2013, 13:00 (Ref:3232496)

True.

MarkG · 11 Apr 2013, 13:20 (Ref:3232503)

The thing is, we all probably like a fiesty, and even a slightly dangerous driver, it is exciting stuff, even though that driver may not be your favourite or considered one of the greats. But, in the main, or maybe always, those drivers are like that from the get go, they are like it through their careers.

Vettel though, is such a prat, that he now decides to be the "dick dastardly" type. He thinks he can do that because he believes he is the best there has ever been and ever will be. I doubt he showed any of this in junior formulas when he was probably being beaten by others. Yes, he has probably improved as a driver, and yes, he is very good, but the problem is, he has been in the best car for quite a while now and because he's a prat, he has become deluded about how good he is and what his value to a team is.

**Peter Mallett** · 11 Apr 2013, 15:22 (Ref:3232529)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

My take is that those who show sportsmanship (or rather used to show it) are likely to be doing so with one eye on the future, as in future within a team, or are simply obeying team orders as in their contract.

Those who do not show 'sportsmanship' are the ultimate single minded slefish drivers who are purely out for individual gain. Or in extreme cases out to scupper either their teammates or teams gain.

There are numerous examples of all of these most of which have been exhuastively documented.

The Stirling Moss epidode in Casablanca is an obvious one, but was that really sportsmanship or was the other driver just told to give up his car?!

So, if I get your point, you don't mind the punting off in touring car racing and other examples of "modern sportsmanship", because that's what it really means in your dictionary.

Sportsmanship is about showing respect, whether it be for a team mate or another competitor. It means that a person will not win at all costs because there is pride in winning fairly. In business I and many others rarely (if at all) give a sucker a break, but in sport, there are no suckers just competitors and if you can't be a sportsman then the next step, I'm afraid, is cheating (see Piquet/Renault).

**Born Racer** · 11 Apr 2013, 15:25 (Ref:3232534)

Fair play to Vettel. Now it's down to Horner to show he has some balls and is a boss. Secretly, Horner was probably happy to trot out the Vettel "not paying any attention" line because he felt it absolved himself of responsibility. Vettel will exploit that, because he's not stupid.