Miller on merger attempt

[JohnSSC]

Just somebody please fix it. CIRCL is broken. I don't care who does it or how they do it. I am sure sick of reading about who did what to who.

The bottom line here is not who did what but what the players haven't been doing, and what they haven't been doing is achieving any measure of success.

Discussions of what the assets are worth is almost pointless (for either side, the 500 excepted) because no one gives a rat's patoot about what is going on. The fans don't seem to and the sponsors sure don't.

Instead we sit here parsing statements and reacting to every comment and statement and then reacting to what we think was said or what really wasn't said.

Just fix it - or end it.

"Dr Kevorkian, Dr Jack Kevorkian, please come to the CIRCL offices..."

[fieldodreams79]

could not have said it better myself, John.

time for someone to "poop" or get off the pot.

[Purist]

I'd love to do something, but unless someone here has a personal e-mail address or direct line to those people, I don't know what we can do to get the attentions of the head sheds.

[luke]

The main heads in CC read the internet forums. Including this one...They post at CCF sometimes...There was in the past always strong support at CCF and recently it's gone down to we're sick of it, it all needs fixing else CC is over...Whether KK and co realize this is one thing but atleast I'd say the majority of CC fans want the same thing and that is for CC to improve and there to be just one series and things don't like there will be a next year..

[JohnSSC]

Yeah, I am sure Forsythe, KK, PG and Le Petit are huddled around a PC somewhere taking notes and scarfing up all the great input from the assorted fora.

Here is something for them: "Stop being so bull-headed and just sit down with whoever you have to sit down with and fix it."

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Neither side seems to be interested in giving up much power, it seems. As long as they refuse to do that, I don't think a merger in the traditional sense of the word will happen. I do however believe that Newman/Haas holds the key to it all. They are, in my eyes, the last great remnant of the old CART days. If they go, it would be such an incentive for the other "non-affiliated" teams (say Walker) that I find it hard to believe that they would remain.
I have heard it reported that the financial package offered by Tony George was directed primarly to such non-affiliated teams, and if Champ Car starts loosing teams to the IRL, even one or two, it will collapse very quickly indeed.

That said, this last season (should it come to that) could be a real cracker if all the deals work out. If they do, there will be some serious quality on the grid. Let's just hope the Eurosport coverage continues like it was last year, because I think it will be a good season...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

I have heard it reported that the financial package offered by Tony George was directed primarly to such non-affiliated teams, and if Champ Car starts loosing teams to the IRL, even one or two, it will collapse very quickly indeed.

Yes it appears there was never really a merger offer, but an under the table deal to lure teams away. It obviously didn't work.

Previously CART lost Penske, Andretti Green, Ganassi, Rahal and Fernandez all in fairly quick succession. Yet the irl is at it's lowest point in years with most of those teams still in the irl. Thinking that Newman Haas or Walker leaving would suddenly make things all well again is shortsighted. I think it's going to take far more than one or two teams moving around.

What potentially could cause a rupture is based on what Honda does. This is their last year with an option for 09. If they bail, that could cause problems for the irl.

[JohnSSC]

There have to be a gazillion Offenhauser engines sitting around, along with assorted Cosworths, Chevy's, Chevy Cosworths, Toyota, Acura (didn't Cheever run those?), Judds & whatever.

Handicap them with weight restrictions and then run whatever. I am sick of these tit-for-tat "discussions" where there is an ongoing effort by one side or the other to "prove" that one side or the other is going to implode.

The God's Honest Truth is that both sides could likely implode.

So, TG, KK, GF, Le Petit, PG if y'all are reading this Just Fix It and let's go racing.

You know, this reminds me of something I saw recently. The company I work for leases space in an office complex built by Westinghouse (back when they owned themselves). In one of the buildings, things are pretty much as they left them 20 years ago: furniture in place, formulas on the chalkboards in the labs and offices - hell, there are even dried up old potted plants in some of the offices.

On one of the chalkboards, this is written:

"All For What?"

In different handwriting beside it:

"Its the $$$"

When I look at CIRCL, I keep seeing that image.

That is what it has come down to. I am not sure anyone involved on either side gives a crap about the racing, it is about the $$.

I hope someone, somewhere will come along and Just Fix It.

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Yeah, I am sure Forsythe, KK, PG and Le Petit are huddled around a PC somewhere taking notes and scarfing up all the great input from the assorted fora.

There is no reason to be like that. Only answering someone's question. Many of the trio have posted at CCf and sent emails. I know KK reads a number of internet forums..That is where the fans are these days (msf for sure as it was news once when he put a passed away cc fan's name on a car in memory from that forum) Probably glad he doesn't read here though so he won't have to read your ideas...

[indycool]

That's one of the problems, luke. The trio thinks F-Troop means they have a larger fan base than what they do because they're loud and give the impression they're a tremendous, vast warlike cult in favor of CC when the membership is next-to-nothing there in the big picture of things.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

That's one of the problems, luke. The trio thinks F-Troop means they have a larger fan base than what they do because they're loud and give the impression they're a tremendous, vast warlike cult in favor of CC when the membership is next-to-nothing there in the big picture of things.

Yup just like TF.

[indycool]

Most probably like all the racing fora dealing with CC and the IRL combined. If you gathered up ALL the CC or IRL posters at ALL the fora and figured out how many there were, my guess is thst it would amount to only a few thousand at most for each.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

Most probably like all the racing fora dealing with CC and the IRL combined. If you gathered up ALL the CC or IRL posters at ALL the fora and figured out how many there were, my guess is thst it would amount to only a few thousand at most for each.

Ultimately who cares?

[indycool]

Those who think their voices are the foundation of a series.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Ultimately who cares?

Ultimately that is the problem. Not enough people care anymore.

Sure, the IRL isn't a booming series. Lowish car counts, Honda could leave, However, Penske owns Ilmor, so engine supply will never be an issue and they could be had anywhere. Honda leaving would be a publicity hit I suppose, but I don't think they spend the money they used to anyway.

But, CCWS is on life support, and Open Wheel outside of Indy isn't much better.

It no longer matters how we got here, except for those who are as much about hate, as they are a love of a sport. It's clear to all of those, but the one's who have created a vested emotional interest for themselves, that this is nothing short of a Shakespearean comedy. Both sides wait for the death of the other, so that they can be Open Wheel. By the time one of these egos give up, there won't be enough fans left for the other to do much with.

This is what Open Wheel fans of both sides look to those of us who are no longer emotionally tied to who "wins".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Knight_(Monty_Python)

Maybe it's time for the Black Knights of Open Wheel to take a realistic evaluation of how bad things have become?

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by luke

There is no reason to be like that. Only answering someone's question. Many of the trio have posted at CCf and sent emails. I know KK reads a number of internet forums..That is where the fans are these days (msf for sure as it was news once when he put a passed away cc fan's name on a car in memory from that forum) Probably glad he doesn't read here though so he won't have to read your ideas...

Thanks luke, nice of you to say that!

[lnin0]

Why would anyone want TG to run their company? What has he made a profit at in the past decade short of the I500 which thrives on tradition far older than he is. The I500 is like Christmas and for him to take any credit for the popularity of an age old holiday is joke. TG couldn't even succeed at keeping F1 around so why would anyone trust him to revive a pair of crippled series with a bunch of unknown drivers? I say let open wheeled racing in the US die and if TG wants anything it should be credit for pulling the rug out from under both.

[luke]

Originally Posted by lnin0

Why would anyone want TG to run their company? What has he made a profit at in the past decade short of the I500 which thrives on tradition far older than he is. The I500 is like Christmas and for him to take any credit for the popularity of an age old holiday is joke. TG couldn't even succeed at keeping F1 around so why would anyone trust him to revive a pair of crippled series with a bunch of unknown drivers? I say let open wheeled racing in the US die and if TG wants anything it should be credit for pulling the rug out from under both.

I agree lnin0. well said.

[indycool]

Well, profits on the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400, for starters. Then there's Clabber Girl baking powder, Brickyard Crossing Golf Course and the restaurant, bar and motel at the golf course. There's still IMS Productions, an award-winning state-of-the-art video production company. The Hulman Co. used to own several TV stations but sold them years ago. Where they put that money is unknown because it's a private company. But, as a private company with an asset like the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that has been appraised at $3.6 BILLION, I doubt that it's hurtin'.

Couldn't keep F-1? No, Bernie wanted more money than an independent promoter could possibly make. He could get it out of Arab oil sheiks. IMS was probably the only place it could be tried in the U.S. with enough mioney to give it a whirl, but it only drew in the neighborhood of 125-130,000 and was not a pretty full house like the other two. It wasn't going to work. It's been replaced by the Moto GP. Time will tell, but at least in Indy people are excited about that because Nicky Hayden is from down the road near Evansville.

[luke]

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, profits on the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400, for starters. Then there's Clabber Girl baking powder, Brickyard Crossing Golf Course and the restaurant, bar and motel at the golf course. There's still IMS Productions, an award-winning state-of-the-art video production company. The Hulman Co. used to own several TV stations but sold them years ago. Where they put that money is unknown because it's a private company. But, as a private company with an asset like the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that has been appraised at $3.6 BILLION, I doubt that it's hurtin'.

Couldn't keep F-1? No, Bernie wanted more money than an independent promoter could possibly make. He could get it out of Arab oil sheiks. IMS was probably the only place it could be tried in the U.S. with enough mioney to give it a whirl, but it only drew in the neighborhood of 125-130,000 and was not a pretty full house like the other two. It wasn't going to work. It's been replaced by the Moto GP. Time will tell, but at least in Indy people are excited about that because Nicky Hayden is from down the road near Evansville.

Lets make TG a saint.



(would be nice to discuss CC in the CC forum for once though)

[mountainstar]

As I understand it a lot of the hulman trust holdings have been sold off and all they have now is clabber girl and the speedway for the most part.

I don't think Tony has the liquid capital anymore or this whole thing would have been over 2 months ago.

Even wildly optimistic people place the value of the speedway at less than a billion dollars. Your 3.6 Billion valuation is beyond foolish.

Someone made the point in another thread that only if Newman Haas and maybe walker moved over it would be curtains for champcar and everyone would live happily ever after. You know Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Fernandez and others moved over and ta da champcar is still here. Toyota, Honda and Chevy were injecting $200 million a year for a while in the irl and still champcar is here. And now despite all that the irl is at it's lowest point in sponsorships and car count in years.

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is stupid. Expecting that if tony george gets the whole caboodle somehow he will run it much better than the failing irl. All the irl people have this co dependency thing going that if only champcar wasn't here things would be so great. I say if you're so successful you don't need us and your success should not be dependent on what we do. You took our teams, our engine manufacturers and some of our venues, and still irl car counts and sponsorships for this year stink.

I think the merger word should be banished. If people want open wheel to be successful like it once was it going to take more than teams or venues shifting around. And it's going to take more than current management to get it done. I believe people are underestimating the task ahead of them.

[indycool]

It IS a CC forum and those in the know here want to discuss TG's finances. I don't know them, and neither does anyone here. That's why there were no numbers in my post. It APPEARS that The Hulman Co. sold some things -- as I mentioned, the TV stations were sold -- but we have no clue as to how that money and whatever other money they have is invested or how it's performed.

But if the track in Loudon, N.H., was sold for $340 million to SMI, somehow you're not very convincing that the world's largest seating facility, also designated a National Historic Landmark, isn't worth pretty close to what I quoted as an appraisal I'd read.

TG started a series with only Indy from scratch and has developed it WITH competition. CART started a series around Indy without competition from USAC after 1 1/2 years. CC started a series with the remnants of a bankrupt CART WITH competition from the IRL. One series, despite the brickbats thrown at guys like Stokkan and Craig, did better than two. It should have been one when CART went bankrupt, but The Amigos got in the way. So we continue with two halves fighting each other to be the whole. Judging TG's management is solely the province of the CW mentality.

And luke, I didn't say a thing about TG being a saint. I responded to the poster's question. Your sarcasm is unwarranted. The IRL was fully mentioned and being discussed before I posted.

The IRL is failing? Oh.

[JohnSSC]

I don't think that they've sold the Bank of Terre Haute, either...then there is the Coca Cola bottling franchise...yeah, the Hulman's are starving to death.

Funny how some posters will happily chime in when someone knocks down TG, but if anyone points out what the Hulman family is worth, then they ask why we are talking about TG in a CC forum.

You can't have it both ways.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

The IRL is failing? Oh.

More than half a billion dollars injected by car manufacturers and the defection of many cart venues and teams in 2002-2004 and yet you have the lowest amounts in years of cars and sponsorship for 2008. Bravo!

As I've had to say many times, the point is not which is better or has the advantage, the point is the irl is no viable vehicle for any "merger". Like I said doing the same thing and expecting different results is stupid.

Can't take the heat get out of the oven.

[indycool]

Link(s)?