The 'Great' WEC Grid Girl Debate

[Peat]

No. You're wrong.

Now go make me a sandwich.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Interesting how feminists and Muslims have been "blamed" for this (as well as the FIA...and the ACO).

I'm not sure if that post was blaming Muslims per se; I think a certain amount of conflation led to using the "Islamisation" term. I could be wrong, but I dearly hope not, what with being a Muslim and all...

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I'm not sure if that post was blaming Muslims per se; I think a certain amount of conflation led to using the "Islamisation" term. I could be wrong, but I dearly hope not, what with being a Muslim and all...

It was hopefully tongue-in-cheek...

[GT6]

I can only believe that some people are not living in the modern world, the grid girls have gone and that is due to various reasons and to be honest most of us will not really be bothered. Motor racing should be a friendly sport about cars going fast and racing each other, who cares about the other stuff, i just what to go to a race with other like minded people and see racing.

[canamman]

Originally Posted by bella

one bestie is the daughter of a rally mechanic, and she grew up on motocross bikes. the other wanted to be in motorsport engineering for as long as she can remember. my best friend 10 years ago was also the daughter of a mechanic and also grew up around cars and racing. when you don't expose little girls to traditionally little girl things, they don't go out of their way to find it.

This reminded me of one of my fatherly exposure trips to a supercross
race in the mid 90's with my oldest daughter. She fell asleep halfway through and I carried her 2 miles to the parking garage at the end of
the show. Oh I would of given anything for her to be bouncing off
the walls talking about the great 250cc final she just saw after about the
first mile!

[Holt]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The problem is that this is not really about the grid girls at all. It's about one very vocal and politically correct group imposing their will on the rest. One can now watch them take their victory lap on twitter and forums. They are celebrating a comprehensive victory. They feel good about themselves, have demonized all that disagree, and imposed their will. All round victory.

Its concerning how such behavior crosses into social engineering all too often. Theres television shows that claim to ask us 'what would you do' but rather they tell us 'what you should do' by demonizing all who do not agree with the producers.

Truth be told, Im worried. These 'movements' are fueled by fear. "Get rid of grid girls or future generations of women will only care about looking pretty, will see no need for an education, and will see themselves as nothing more then an object!"

Its that type of fear mongering that was likely part of this decision as well as the festering backbone of numerous 'social justice' issues that have been blown way out of proportion

[Spyderman]

Indeed!
It is also frighting to see here many accusing some of living in the past . The understanding that this is about freedom of choice is either lost on them or considered really unimportant. Not a good omen for the "modern"world.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by garcon

If I was going to take someone's photograph in a public place I'd generally ask their permission first. Is that basic level of politeness old fashioned now?

Ever hear of candid photography? Street photography? If you are say, on a grid walk surrounded by ten thousand people, do you use a bull horn and ask everyone at once? If the people are fifty feet away do you shout? if they are fifty feet away and on the other side of a fence, do you climb the fence or tear it down?

I generally just go for it. if I ever got a weird feeling or a sour look or anything similar, I would desist. As I mentioned, I usually get smiles. I have also been asked by women to take their photos when they saw me out shooting--I guess they thought I was a photographer or something.

Anyway there are actually laws pertaining to all this---who you can shoot and when and what you can do with the resulting pictures. I leave it to your level of interest in serious discussion on the topic if you choose to look them up and read them.

Again, I have Never gotten a negative reaction, despite being a "creepy" old man. Your mileage may vary.

[bella]

Originally Posted by canamman

This reminded me of one of my fatherly exposure trips to a supercross
race in the mid 90's with my oldest daughter. She fell asleep halfway through and I carried her 2 miles to the parking garage at the end of
the show. Oh I would of given anything for her to be bouncing off
the walls talking about the great 250cc final she just saw after about the
first mile!

at least you tried! i saw my first grand prix in person when i was 13, but remember watching it on telly when i was very little because my dad used to watch it sometimes. ours is a football family though, so i saw my first united game before i saw my first grand prix.

i don't get why the need to see ladies in lycra is such a defining part of civil liberties for so many people. we're not trying to take anything away from men. you can still lust after girls with their boobs out on the beach. but it doesn't have a place in a sport where women are supposed to be welcome. it sends the message that you have to be pretty and skinny to be involved in motorsport if you're a girl.

in the meantime it's interesting to note that i've not seen anything objectionable from anyone who has been to the tenths meetings at le mans.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by bella

at least you tried! i saw my first grand prix in person when i was 13, but remember watching it on telly when i was very little because my dad used to watch it sometimes. ours is a football family though, so i saw my first united game before i saw my first grand prix.

i don't get why the need to see ladies in lycra is such a defining part of civil liberties for so many people. we're not trying to take anything away from men. you can still lust after girls with their boobs out on the beach. but it doesn't have a place in a sport where women are supposed to be welcome. it sends the message that you have to be pretty and skinny to be involved in motorsport if you're a girl.

in the meantime it's interesting to note that i've not seen anything objectionable from anyone who has been to the tenths meetings at le mans.

It's not about our need to see ladies in lycra. It's about their freedom to accept a job that may (or not) involve them wearing Lycra. If it was truly about their their outfits (or lack there of) why not have them in T-Shirts and Jeans (or other considered "appropriate" attire)? This was never even considered, because the point was to impose a will, not to reach common ground.

[GT6]

I know the tenths meetings are largely male affairs but it is changing, helen always sees the meetings as an essential part they she really looks forward to and she has always been made to feel very welcome there. I do hope that you feel the same

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Peat

Would it be appropriate to have girls revealing outfits handing out flyers at the supermarket for example?

As one of Chinna's earlier posts demonstrated ... scantilly clad women are a feature of every aspect of our society.

To me that is not the issue---it is that sexual interaction is used so widely in marketing that bothers me, whether it features men, women or men and women.

The sickness I see (at least in North America) is that we wonder why we have so many issues with sexualized children and early pregnancy, when sex or the lure of sex or intimations of sex are literally flooding out of every media from TV to radio to billboards to magazines ...

Personally I see a a divide between using beauty or sex as an appeal. Not every picture of an appealing person is an erotic picture, but mild eroticism is so much a fabric of our advertising atmosphere I am not sure most people even notice.

One other small point---a supermarket is considered to a open to the general public, while a motor race is open only to people who have voluntarily paid for the right to be there. it is assumed that visitors accept a certain amount of responsibility if they go to a private event (for instance, the real physical danger to which spectators are exposed at a race.)

Not many people who go to a race would be shocked to see grid girls, while yes, they would seem possibly out of place at a public supermarket (though I have never seen a grid girl who was so inappropriately dressed that she would attract undue interest on the street. The common costume seems to be tights (go to any gym) or somewhat short skirts (walk by any high school and you will see worse.)

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by bella

fascinating. i (and my best friends) grew up without being given the pink girly dialogue and spent my summer holidays holding toy car races. i liked the pioneer branded f40 the best so i made it win all the time. think i have a future in wec management?

one bestie is the daughter of a rally mechanic, and she grew up on motocross bikes. the other wanted to be in motorsport engineering for as long as she can remember. my best friend 10 years ago was also the daughter of a mechanic and also grew up around cars and racing. when you don't expose little girls to traditionally little girl things, they don't go out of their way to find it.

Apparently the " pink girly dialogue". is not always necessary: http://health.usnews.com/health-news...-specific-toys

[bella]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

It's not about our need to see ladies in lycra. It's about their freedom to accept a job that may (or not) involve them wearing Lycra. If it was truly about their their outfits (or lack there of) why not have them in T-Shirts and Jeans (or other considered "appropriate" attire)? This was never even considered, because the point was to impose a will, not to reach common ground.

i don't think you've seen the wec grid girls then. the ladies were in tshirt dresses that weren't particularly clingy or obscene, and aside from the extreme amounts of makeup in some countries looked pretty classy.

the point is that even though they had pretty modest and unrevealing outfits (compared to motogp and the btcc ladies), the aco have decided that they're a waste of money and send a bad message to women. f1 has similarly modest and classy outfits (with the exception of some countries who still have an odd view of women), and i'd like to see them do the same.

it's saying "you know what? we don't need to employ them. it sends a poor message to the masses about our series and their attitude to gender, and that's a couple of thousand euros from the entry fees that could be spent better elsewhere".

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Indeed!
It is also frighting to see here many accusing some of living in the past . The understanding that this is about freedom of choice is either lost on them or considered really unimportant. Not a good omen for the "modern"world.

You can't keep saying it's a freedom of choice thing though, when surely it's the same freedom of choice for the organisers to not employ people for this job? No one is stopping anyone from wearing whatever they want at a race track, they're just no longer offering it as a job. Likewise, I no longer have the 'freedom' to be a slave trader, tiger hunter or opium salesman, but I won't be filing any restraint of trade suits any time soon.

Similarly, there's no more 'demonisation' going on from one side of this moral argument than another. It seems that people complaining about demonisation are demonising others in return.

Don't get me wring Spyderman, it's not a personal thing and I can understand your point of view. It's not a black and white (or important, to me) issue; there are pros and cons to either decision - the series has just gone for whichever one has best PR value. From my personal point of view, I'm glad, but just because fewer people stood in front of the cars is always good for me.

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by bella

it's saying "you know what? we don't need to employ them. it sends a poor message to the masses about our series and their attitude to gender, and that's a couple of thousand euros from the entry fees that could be spent better elsewhere".

I was writing my above reply at the same time, but that paragraph sums it up better than my post.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by bella

i don't think you've seen the wec grid girls then. the ladies were in tshirt dresses that weren't particularly clingy or obscene, and aside from the extreme amounts of makeup in some countries looked pretty classy.

Actually I hardly pay any attention to them at all.

Originally Posted by bella

the point is that even though they had pretty modest and unrevealing outfits (compared to motogp and the btcc ladies), the aco have decided that they're a waste of money and send a bad message to women.

This is where we disagree. Why a bad message? It may be distasteful for you (and that great), but not to them.

Originally Posted by bella

f1 has similarly modest and classy outfits (with the exception of some countries who still have an odd view of women), and i'd like to see them do the same.

I'm sure you would (aand I'm sure they will) , but many wont...and they have their right too.

Originally Posted by bella

it's saying "you know what? we don't need to employ them. it sends a poor message to the masses about our series and their attitude to gender, and that's a couple of thousand euros from the entry fees that could be spent better elsewhere".

I doubt that this has anything to do with finance. They could easily get the girls to do this fro free. Many are aspiring models that want/need the exposure. Some are dying to get photographed so they can increase their chances of getting onto a cover of a magazine, etc.
Finally - I don't want the ACO passing social judgement on anything. Just organize and run the races

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by bella

it's hard to get into the sport when you're not a guy. you have a decent proportion of management 'worried about having a girl on the team' (actual words that i've heard) when they employ 3 in conventional female roles and 'don't like the extra cost' of having to book an extra hotel room. then you have the traditional male phobias of 'woman troubles' and not being able to make sexist jokes and lewd comments because theres a lady present.

Actually (believe it or not) even "creepy" old guys can understand this.

However, at least one of those guys doesn't think grid girls are a problem. How many drivers, team owners, etc. are suddenly going to change their attitudes because they don't see grid girls?

And how many women haven not gotten hired because of grid girls?

This is a classic case of cutting off the leaves and ignoring the roots. Attack the symptom, not the cause.

(Lena Gada, Kat Legge, Simona di Silvestro, Shirley Muldowney ... Ashley freaking Force. Women who want to obviously can.)

Originally Posted by bella

neither gender should be used as token fluff. you only need to check out the side panel of the daily mail website to see an example of the self-image hate that both women and men get from the media. taking a step away from that is great.

At the same time, "self-hate" and buying into the images media present (for men and women) is a problem not of the media but of the consumer.

If parents can't understand that TV and advertising isn't real, then the kids are left to figure it out. And if in general we live in a society where women have Never been considered as valuable as men (more valued as property than as people) then it's not grid girls, it's the attitudes people already have whether they see grid girls or not.

I don't see removing grid girls as any kind of serious step towards improving society. I don't care one way or another ... there are still plenty of beautiful people (again, of every shape, size, and age) in any crowd for people who want to see them. What I saw here at the beginning of this debate was people transferring all their anger towards one (just one) of the gross inequities of modern society, onto the issue of whether it is morally correct to have young women stand around looking like young women. And on the other hand, people who are tired of being hounded by the "PC" crowd, defending what they saw as further intrusion.

I don't see anyone saying that women should best be seen as objects or property. I can tell you, as a heterosexual male who has spent a Lot of time with activist women, that some of them are just fine and some of them like to blame every male for the inequities of human society since before we were actually human. Some men who actually respect people (not just men or just women) get a little tired of being told we Are the problem, because we have functioning hormonal systems, even though the functions of those systems are kept completely in check by our intellects.

I think this thread has vastly improved, now that some of the misplaced passion has exhausted itself.

Originally Posted by bella

ps. i hope i don't fall under the radical feminist banner. i'm just trying to get taken seriously as an employee. i want little girls to see the great women running the sport in team and organiser shirts and not wonder why they're not wearing high heels and carrying a flag.

I think posts like this help us to see you more clearly, and to see you as a person and not a representative of a label, just as I am not a "creepy" old man who walks around drooling on women.

In a perfect society I think possibly we would be able to see and celebrate the beauty of human beings and everything else we see. There is nothing wrong with seeing the world as a place of great beauty. At the same time, I would thank that in society we would never confuse superficial appearance with character---knowing the contents are what matter, not just the package.

I would hope in the future that men and women would feel free to stand around looking beautiful if they like, and if people want to pay them to do that, great (The sculptor Rodin did exactly that--paid people to hang out so he could see those sudden, unplannable moments of extreme beauty if form and pose.) And I would hope no one would feel that that, or any other profession, was automatically good or bad.

Anyway ... good to see the discussion is continuing without the venom.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

You can't keep saying it's a freedom of choice thing though, when surely it's the same freedom of choice for the organisers to not employ people for this job?

Sure, and you will note that no one has denied them that right. It's the reasons given for the decision that we disagree with

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

No one is stopping anyone from wearing whatever they want at a race track, they're just no longer offering it as a job.

I think we have established that its not about what they wear.

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Likewise, I no longer have the 'freedom' to be a slave trader, tiger hunter or opium salesman, but I won't be filing any restraint of trade suits any time soon.

Similarly, there's no more 'demonisation' going on from one side of this moral argument than another. It seems that people complaining about demonisation are demonising others in return.

Nice association with the slave trader,tiger hunter, opium salesman. No demonization going on at all.

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

Don't get me wring Spyderman, it's not a personal thing and I can understand your point of view. It's not a black and white (or important, to me) issue; there are pros and cons to either decision - the series has just gone for whichever one has best PR value. From my personal point of view, I'm glad, but just because fewer people stood in front of the cars is always good for me.

I wont take it personally. I just am very fearful for our future. Keep your eyes and ears open and you will see many other examples of this taking place. Some of them you will agree with. Others you wont.

[Spyderman]

I thought it might add to the discussion to actually meet some of the girls:
http://www.speedchills.com/speed-chills-girls

[bella]

sorry, i can't address all these points because i need to go out, but i just want to say something about this one

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Actually (believe it or not) even "creepy" old guys can understand this.

However, at least one of those guys doesn't think grid girls are a problem. How many drivers, team owners, etc. are suddenly going to change their attitudes because they don't see grid girls?

And how many women haven not gotten hired because of grid girls?

This is a classic case of cutting off the leaves and ignoring the roots. Attack the symptom, not the cause.

(Lena Gada, Kat Legge, Simona di Silvestro, Shirley Muldowney ... Ashley freaking Force. Women who want to obviously can.)

firstly, i wasn't calling you creepy, i was saying that going around taking pictures of people in the paddock who have zero relevance to the event in question is creepy. i hope you understand that. i have lots of normal friends who do creepy stuff too, they're not creepy old guys but it doesn't stop me calling out what they're doing as creepy!

secondly, directly because of grid girls? that's difficult to quantify.

i'll tell you how it goes for girls. boy motorsport enthusiasts are just bobblehats. girls are groupies. if you're a girl who really likes motorsport, the majority of the team people will assume you're trying to sleep with a driver, and will try and hit on you in case you need a backup plan. if you want a drivers autograph, you're trying to hit on him.

it takes a lot of effort to get accepted as "one of the guys". once you've been accepted it's fine, you're not judged to any different standards to the guys because you're one of them. in fact if anything the guys are great, they're protective and are more than happy to help out, teach you stuff, show you how to do things, and send you to the truck for a left handed screwdriver just like any of the guys.

but getting through that door is really hard. and it's hard because we perpetuate the idea that women are just there to look pretty and sleep with by having girls there specifically for those reasons. eliminating grid girls is starting a change within the sport, by saying to everyone (fans, teams, drivers) "women aren't here for you to leer at, they're here to work".

of course, lots of drivers are outraged at this move because it means that there's going to be a lot fewer hot girls available on tinder for their "event preparation"

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Sure, and you will note that no one has denied them that right......

Good post, thanks.

[Peat]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I thought it might add to the discussion to actually meet some of the girls:
http://www.speedchills.com/speed-chills-girls

'Actually meet'?

[Spyderman]

In the virtual sense

[wdave0]

Chill out folks, it's just part of the cost cutting program, like spec engines or only 4 P2 manufacturers, and only another bunch of people loosing jobs.