[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

Very dissapointing, it's just an LMP with less awkward proportions, they could've at least changed the TS050 headlights to something similar to the GR SuperSport.


I don't really see the problem with having both classes, it's all going to be BoP'd anyway and the LMH option is there for manufacturers who would rather build their own car and don't mind the extra costs involved with doing so.



The TS020 absolutely was widely loved and still is, that you don't like it is an entirely different thing. Funny you should mention the original GT1 Porsches since they started the homologation special trend that eventually killed the class and were against the spirit of the rules as much as the later more extreme cars like the Mercedes and the Toyota, the difference is Toyota never bothered pretending the cars were anything other than prototypes.

That’s the problem though...trying to balance 2 sets of regs into the same class, it never works well.....

[tux]

Is it even going to be any cheaper? Toyota are just doing endless laps around Paul Ricard, Porsche, Peugeot will do the same.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by tux

Is it even going to be any cheaper? Toyota are just doing endless laps around Paul Ricard, Porsche, Peugeot will do the same.

At a yearly rental of $350K for a 40hp spec hybrid RWD system we don't think so.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

It was not wrong expectations. To return to the GT1 look is exactly what was promoted. Look how much they hyped the Valkyrie when they thought they were going to run it. Look at the early rumors of the class back in 2018/2019. The expectation was set by then. Got us fans hyped and now Toyota drops us a whimper. The first sign that I got though that this category was going to be a let down was the reveal of the ByKolles "hypercar" last year.

Playing devils advocate here a bit, but haven't road going hypercar or surpercar projects been trending towards looking more and more like lmp cars over the years? So we shouldn't really be surprised that an even more extreme version of this (LMH) looks like a prototype.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by joeb

Playing devils advocate here a bit, but haven't road going hypercar or surpercar projects been trending towards looking more and more like lmp cars over the years? So we shouldn't really be surprised that an even more extreme version of this (LMH) looks like a prototype.

A big issue is aero that meets race rules. Road solutions aren't always race legal.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Here we go. Side on is the new car's best angle IMO.

Cheers, Simmi!

I am struggling to understand all the moaning and groaning about this new prototype racing car looking like a prototype racing car. It's not a road car. It's built to the regulations.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

That’s the problem though...trying to balance 2 sets of regs into the same class, it never works well.....

I mean it's not like they're wildly different in concept, they certainly have far more in common with each other than for example a Bentley Continental and a Lamborghini Huracan in GT3.

[hondafan37]

In reality it was the ACO who deceived us into believing that the Hypercar would be new GT1. Remember the pictures with which they presented the new rules.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

It was not wrong expectations. To return to the GT1 look is exactly what was promoted. Look how much they hyped the Valkyrie when they thought they were going to run it. Look at the early rumors of the class back in 2018/2019. The expectation was set by then. Got us fans hyped and now Toyota drops us a whimper. The first sign that I got though that this category was going to be a let down was the reveal of the ByKolles "hypercar" last year.

The first draft version of the rulebook was already published in December 2018 (and since has changed surprisingly little). After that it was clear what the rules were about. Even the very first article defined the cars as "Le Mans Prototypes". The dumb hypercar term became a more official class name later.

This is the first public presentation from June 2018, see pages 11-12:

https://assets.lemans.org/explorer/p...ier-presse.pdf

Those outlines are still valid (movable aero was disallowed but that isn't relevant now). Free aero design as long as it passes the homologation which includes wind tunnel testing. No rule that says you can't have LMPish looks and no rule that says you have to have road car looks.

What comes to the Valkyrie, in the original (Dec 2018) regs there weren't even any allowances for production model derived cars, all that was added later thanks to Aston's lobbying (Dec 2019 version). They're still in the rules (Dec 2020 version) but it's been obvious no one is going to use them now.

I'll admit though that even I didn't expect so LMPish looks, but I certainly never expected "GT1s" and never any road cars except the Valkyrie.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by tux

Is it even going to be any cheaper? Toyota are just doing endless laps around Paul Ricard, Porsche, Peugeot will do the same.

There's little point in doing endless testing when you can only homologate 5 joker updates during the entire 5-year homologation period.

In 2021 private testing isn't limited though, but that looks like something meant only for 2021 and in future only for new entrants.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by deggis

There's little point in doing endless testing when you can only homologate 5 joker updates during the entire 5-year homologation period.

In 2021 private testing isn't limited though, but that looks like something meant only for 2021 and in future only for new entrants.

Is that true of LMDh?
Either way Porsche/Audi will have to do a lot of testing of their "branding bits".

[chernaudi]

And besides, I don't think that the ACO's renders were ever going to meet practical reality. I mean, look at the sidepods. Unless there were going to be cars with front mounted radiators, you'd have a car with funky weight distribution if not for all that ballast to meet 1030kg.

Radiators on both of the renders pictured are mounted way further back than on stuff like the Audi R8 or R10 or the Peugeot 908s or most other LMP cars since side mounted radiators became the trend.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Is that true of LMDh?
Either way Porsche/Audi will have to do a lot of testing of their "branding bits".

What I said was based on the testing article in the 2021 sporting regs and it only lists LMH.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

this is the bit i just dont get with hypercar.

Theyre introducing a class that has cars that look the same as LMP2 the same target lap time as current LMP2, but will cost a lot more than LMP2 and requires current LMP2 to be slowed down.

To me, thats why LMDh makes more sense......or DPi for that matter

Tbh it would have made more sense to me to have the LMDh/dpi rules instead of hyper and keep LMP2 as they were so in essence you have Prototype Pro and Prototype Pro/AM classes.

DPi (and probably LMDh) is an LMP2 car that looks like an LMP2 car and has the same target lap time as LMP2 but costs a lot more and apparently requires LMP2 to be slowed down, so I don't see the difference other than DPi being more restrictive in regards to entrants.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

I thought the Porsche GT1 1998 car pushed the boundaries of the class. Toyota burried it.

lmao, the TS020 is just a GT1-98 that was designed with 1998 standard aero instead of 1994.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

The TS020 absolutely was widely loved and still is, that you don't like it is an entirely different thing. Funny you should mention the original GT1 Porsches since they started the homologation special trend that eventually killed the class and were against the spirit of the rules as much as the later more extreme cars like the Mercedes and the Toyota, the difference is Toyota never bothered pretending the cars were anything other than prototypes.

I believe Toyota learned the lesson of 1994 when Porsche raced a 962 in GT1 (Dauer 962), taking the rules advantage that GT1s had.
So with the TS020 they created the most extreme that the regulation allowed.
Porsche and Mercedes also raced the FIA ​​GT and I understand that the FIA ​​required larger cabins than the ACO, even the FIA ​​accepted smaller cabins in 1998, I remember that the Nissan R390 GT1 was not admitted in the 1000 KM of Suzuka in 1997 and it had a larger cabin than the 911 GT1 1998 and the CLK LM.

[Gingers4Justice]

I’m finding it genuinely baffling - and a little amusing - at just how cross some of us are getting about the Toyota not looking like we want it to look.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I’m finding it genuinely baffling - and a little amusing - at just how cross some of us are getting about the Toyota not looking like we want it to look.

Yep, can only agree. That said, I, personally, gave up appraising the looks of prototypes in 2011, when the rules mandated that from that year forward they must all be ugly by default...😉

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I’m finding it genuinely baffling - and a little amusing - at just how cross some of us are getting about the Toyota not looking like we want it to look.

i dont think its just that, i think its just confusing to the average person looking in at why the ACO would create a new class, that is the same speed as an LMP2, costs more than an LMP2, and you then have to slow LMP2 down to keep LMH faster....

....surely the simpler answer would have been using the LMP2 rules for LMH, opening them up to manufactuers so they can have different chassis and engine types....

...i dont know, im sure theres a reason they didnt do that but it would have been the simple route to get the same lap time, surely?

The cynic in me says the ACO didnt do this because A) IMSA got their first with DPI B) Maybe its not what toyota/ Aston wanted....but it appears other manufacturers see the sense in it.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i dont think its just that, i think its just confusing to the average person looking in at why the ACO would create a new class, that is the same speed as an LMP2, costs more than an LMP2, and you then have to slow LMP2 down to keep LMH faster....

....surely the simpler answer would have been using the LMP2 rules for LMH, opening them up to manufactuers so they can have different chassis and engine types....

...i dont know, im sure theres a reason they didnt do that but it would have been the simple route to get the same lap time, surely?

The cynic in me says the ACO didnt do this because A) IMSA got their first with DPI B) Maybe its not what toyota/ Aston wanted....but it appears other manufacturers see the sense in it.

I think you’ve answered the question yourself, in that the LMP2+ formula already exists and you will be able to race with that at Le Mans from 2023 onwards.

I see the argument about why change in the first place, but it’s important to remember that speed = cost. The LMP1s of the mid-late 2010s were simply too fast and too complicated to be sustainable. Yes, the GR010 looks similar to an LMP1 (which may disappoint some), but the point is that much simpler cars will be able to compete with this thing.

Perhaps there’s no greater example of this than the fact we have someone posting on this very thread who’s building a car to beat it!

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Yep, can only agree. That said, I, personally, gave up appraising the looks of prototypes in 2011, when the rules mandated that from that year forward they must all be ugly by default...😉

The WSC open top cars were seen as a giant step back but I’m now on FB groups with thousands of people drooling over Riley & Scotts and Lolas which we unloved and overlooked at the time. The same will happen to the LMP1s, I’m sure, in time to come.

This is all highly subjective, but I actually love the look of this new car, reminds me a little of the Lotus GT1s.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Widely loved? No it was not. Back then I knew the Toyota GT1 was a category killer. I loved the McLarens and original Porsche GT1s. I thought the Porsche GT1 1998 car pushed the boundaries of the class. Toyota burried it.

Doing so now. They ruined the idea of the hypercar class before it even started.

Not widely loved? You sure about that? There were a lot of people (including me) who thought the TS020 was the sexiest thing on wheels - and frankly still is.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Thought we were getting GR Super Sport. Nope. Got TS050 slightly modified.

Already been said. I'll leave you to underline it the next time.....

Originally Posted by Mike E

I am struggling to understand all the moaning and groaning about this new prototype racing car looking like a prototype racing car. It's not a road car. It's built to the regulations.

Yep.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I’m finding it genuinely baffling - and a little amusing - at just how cross some of us are getting about the Toyota not looking like we want it to look.

As long as it comes out in the requisite white/red/black livery all will be forgiven!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

I’m finding it genuinely baffling - and a little amusing - at just how cross some of us are getting about the Toyota not looking like we want it to look.

Originally Posted by joeb

As long as it comes out in the requisite white/red/black livery all will be forgiven!

Absolutely. And it turns out that Toyota were having us on all the time. Here is the real car..... Right colours too.....

[Mike E]

That looks amazing

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mike E

That looks amazing

Kinda compact and bijou......