ELMS ELMS Discussion - Page 7

Deleted · 6 Apr 2019, 15:59 (Ref:3895734)

???

I thought we were talking about the costs for the said customers buying/leasing the chassis, not for the cartel constructors themselves who obviously are swimming in money even more then before (well the two French monopolies at least, Dallara to lesser extent for servicing the GM badged DPis)

ApexTurtle · 6 Apr 2019, 17:34 (Ref:3895755)

Well yes, cheaper construction means they can be sold for a lower price

Deleted · 6 Apr 2019, 17:55 (Ref:3895760)

Naive

Also, in the old regs the cost cap was 370,000 (open top) / 450,000 (coupe), but with these "cheaper cars" it's gone up to 483,000 euros

But I'm sure the cartel manufacturers were thinking of the needs of customers first when lobbying these regulations, surely

ApexTurtle · 6 Apr 2019, 18:34 (Ref:3895769)

I don't think cartel means what you think it means

Akrapovic · 6 Apr 2019, 19:35 (Ref:3895779)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

LMP2 is much cheaper because of spec engines and fewer chassis choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

More customers = fewer construction costs. Not that hard to understand, surely

There's too many unrelated details here which are being linked together.

LMP2 is "cheap" because it is cost-capped, not because of spec engines and fewer chassis.

LMP2 has more customers due to that cost cap.

Construction costs are lower because when you cannot raise the price (due to the cap), the only way to extend the profit margin is lower the construction (and design, etc) phase. So more resources go into this phase than otherwise would have.

And as Chiana correctly points out, the cost cap for these chassis is higher than previous chassis costs. That's because with only 4 chassis (3 realistically, because 1 is garbage, and arguably 1 because the ORECA is miles ahead), you can charge the full cost cap for it.

When LMP2 was an open formula and constructors could update the chassis, market forces kept the prices lower as nobody would sell a car for $500k because other cars were $350k. It wasn't worth extra because nobody had a huge performance advantage because the cars could be updated by the constructors. Now they can't do that.

LMP2 isn't cheaper than it used to be. It's now more expensive than it was because of the limited number of chassis available.

**Adam43** · 7 Apr 2019, 02:15 (Ref:3895813)

IIRC the problem (or at least the theory) was that those constructors, because of market forces, struggled to keep going. The limitation was to help the remaining constructors be sustainable (profitable), not to make it cheaper for the teams.

In addition it allowed for a controllable increase in speeds.

Deleted · 7 Apr 2019, 10:34 (Ref:3895864)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

IIRC the problem (or at least the theory) was that those constructors, because of market forces, struggled to keep going. The limitation was to help the remaining constructors be sustainable (profitable), not to make it cheaper for the teams.

In addition it allowed for a controllable increase in speeds.

Interesting theory considering that before these rules Oreca was making cash not only with majority of field in LMP2 (both 05 and old Courage 03R) but also LMP1 (R-One), LMPC (FLM09) and LMP3 (engine and electrical spec parts), while Onroak had large presence in LMP2 (JSP2 and old Pescarolo) and almost the entire LMP3 chassis field. Now with LMP2 going almost entirely to their spec deals, their already astronomical market share grew to even bigger heights.

Meanwhile Dallara and Riley weren't even involved anywhere except Daytona Prototype yet were handed the supply rights :-D you know while people like BR and HPD were told to get out (Zytek got the spec deal for engines so I guess they were happy enough)... So how does the reasoning of "helping remaining constructors" work in these contexts lol

**Adam43** · 7 Apr 2019, 11:50 (Ref:3895895)

Theory not practice

I was considering the rationale at the time for doing it, not the outcome.
Maybe the theory was also it would allow other manufacturers the chance to compete and be profitable by giving them a chance at a sustainable market share. Although we ended up with something similar.

Akrapovic · 7 Apr 2019, 12:03 (Ref:3895896)

If that's the theory then it's very flawed as really weren't losing manufacturers. By limiting it to 4 then you cause more damage to those who were not chosen than the natural market forces ever would.

The current generation of LMP2 was a solution in search of a problem.

Deleted · 7 Apr 2019, 14:24 (Ref:3895947)

The "theory" might've been more believable had Hughes de Chaunac not been the spokesperson for it

Anyway there are three remaining good qualities about P2:
1. Retained tire war
2. All chassis look visually great
3. Spec is lame and goes against everything related to "prototype" but even that is preferable to GTE/upcoming-P1 BoP (the jokers for non-Orecas were sort of bop yes but jut one-time I guess)

Anyopenroad · 7 Apr 2019, 17:35 (Ref:3896003)

Whatever the rationale and shenanigans, the effect is an ELMS field with:

A two-make race in LMP2 (one lone Dallara in a sea of Oreca and Ligier the exception to prove the rule)
A two-make race in LMP3
A two-make race in GTE

With spec engines in LMP2 and LMP3 cars in each class sound identical and frankly it takes an expert eye to tell them apart visually.

A 41-entry field cannot cover up that this is a poor show. I am more and more coming to the view that diversity > numbers. A 16-car field with 8 manufacturers in the Laguna Seca 8 Hours (for example) is much preferable to ELMS's stream of identikit cars.

Deleted · 7 Apr 2019, 18:18 (Ref:3896017)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Whatever the rationale and shenanigans, the effect is an ELMS field with:

A two-make race in LMP2 (one lone Dallara in a sea of Oreca and Ligier the exception to prove the rule)
A two-make race in LMP3
A two-make race in GTE

With spec engines in LMP2 and LMP3 cars in each class sound identical and frankly it takes an expert eye to tell them apart visually.

A 41-entry field cannot cover up that this is a poor show. I am more and more coming to the view that diversity > numbers. A 16-car field with 8 manufacturers in the Laguna Seca 8 Hours (for example) is much preferable to ELMS's stream of identikit cars.

You also forgot spec tires in LMP3 and GTE and pro-am in all of them

But yes it's pretty funny that the infamous 13 car field in the "Nightmare on ELMS street" had more variety than the field today lol

2019 HTTT 4 Hours - 41 entries
Oreca 07 Zytek
Onroak JSP17 Zytek
Onroak JSP3 Nissan
Dallara P217 Zytek
Norma M30 Nissan
Ferrari 488 GTE
Porsche 911 RSR

2012 Donington 6 Hours - 13 entries
Oreca 03 Nissan
Oreca FLM09 Chevrolet
Oak Pescarolo Nissan
Oak Pescarolo Judd
Zytek Z11SN Nissan
Lola B12/80 Judd
Ferrari 458 Italia
Porsche 997 GT3 RSR

airbusA346 · 7 Apr 2019, 20:00 (Ref:3896040)

Felbermayr colours back in ELMS(/LMS).

Yuri G. · 12 Apr 2019, 13:53 (Ref:3897007)

Anyone knows why Villorba isn't at Le Castellet?

ApexTurtle · 12 Apr 2019, 14:23 (Ref:3897010)

Didn't they move up to WEC for next season?

Deleted · 12 Apr 2019, 14:24 (Ref:3897011)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri G.

Anyone knows why Villorba isn't at Le Castellet?

Because they've switched to WEC (19-20). But they will do Monza as one-off before LM

They were supposed to run some P3s in ELMS but looks like it's switched to GT3 in MLMC

Anyway Barcelona is now a night race, so the first one for LMS since Portimao & Hungaroring 2010. There was one race at HTTT that finished in the dusk (2013 or something) but I wouldn't count that in

ApexTurtle · 12 Apr 2019, 14:52 (Ref:3897017)

Probably a good idea since they're racing in Spain in July...

Yuri G. · 12 Apr 2019, 15:58 (Ref:3897030)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

Didn't they move up to WEC for next season?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

Because they've switched to WEC (19-20). But they will do Monza as one-off before LM

Thank you very much, I totally missed that.

Deleted · 13 Apr 2019, 08:50 (Ref:3897179)

They're still listed as "ELMS entrant" in the LM entry list for some reason though

ApexTurtle · 13 Apr 2019, 10:01 (Ref:3897197)

I reckon that's because their WEC entry grants them a ticket for Le Mans 2020.

gert · 13 Apr 2019, 14:03 (Ref:3897220)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

They're still listed as "ELMS entrant" in the LM entry list for some reason though

Probably because they have not yet started a WEC race, and have done LMS in 2018-2019.

Deleted · 19 Apr 2019, 17:02 (Ref:3898606)

Satuday timetable for Barcelona looks pretty similar to the final running of Portimao 1000km

2019 Barcelona
10.50-11.40 Qualifying
18.30-22.30 Race

2010 Portimao
09.50-10.40 Qualifying
17.00-23.00 Race

Akrapovic · 19 Apr 2019, 17:47 (Ref:3898612)

I believe it was moved to an evening race at Barcelona due to the temperatures.

Deleted · 19 Apr 2019, 18:02 (Ref:3898615)

Yes

Too bad there's no Ford Transit support race like at that Portimao event

Old LMP1s, incl 908 and other 2000's "historic" cars from P2/GT1/GT2 will be racing at the Monza ELMS weekend btw. Unfortunately one cannot see them unless at the track

ApexTurtle · 19 Apr 2019, 18:11 (Ref:3898620)

Wait a Ford Transit support race? Is there footage of that?

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