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10 Oct 2022, 19:58 (Ref:4129789) | #151 | ||
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I may try to read the regulations later. Richard |
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10 Oct 2022, 20:00 (Ref:4129790) | #152 | ||
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Another big area is where you supply controlled parts to other teams. While declaring a profit may not beneficial, shipping out some R&D and tooling costs may very well be. |
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10 Oct 2022, 20:38 (Ref:4129794) | #153 | ||
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Richard |
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10 Oct 2022, 21:33 (Ref:4129805) | #154 | ||
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Well, it's official now - but in reality we don't know all that much (yet). AM procedural breach but RB both procedural and minor overspend breaches.
As I understand it, the teams now have two choices: 1. decide to accept the finding of the FIA cost cap crew - in which case a penalty is applied but loss of championship points can't be included in that penalty 2. decide to argue against or discuss the finding, in which case a judicial panel is formed and the range of potential penalties is wider. So, we may be about to know the final outcome of all this OR it could drag on for some time. I suspect that there is a lot more information to come out in either case. |
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11 Oct 2022, 01:30 (Ref:4129819) | #155 | ||
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Except only RB seems to not find the rule to be clear?
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11 Oct 2022, 07:37 (Ref:4129836) | #156 | |
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11 Oct 2022, 07:38 (Ref:4129837) | #157 | |
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I hope it's a financial penalty for violating the cost cap. Proving you can indeed spend your way through a cost ceiling.
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11 Oct 2022, 07:46 (Ref:4129841) | #158 | ||
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i think a fitting penalty would be a sizable reduction in 2023 spending cap
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11 Oct 2022, 08:17 (Ref:4129843) | #159 | |
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The problem with an overspend is that it's not just for one year. If you can develop more one year, you will have an advantage the next year as well. So, the punishment need to cover multiple years.
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11 Oct 2022, 08:41 (Ref:4129846) | #160 | ||
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A fine has to be greater than the overspend and it has to come out of this or next year’s budget. Otherwise, as Akrapovic says, it becomes cost-efficient to cheat.
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11 Oct 2022, 08:54 (Ref:4129849) | #161 | |
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11 Oct 2022, 08:56 (Ref:4129850) | #162 | |
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One (of many) potential issues for RB is that they seem to be convinced that they were several million under the budget cap (as do their auditors) so if they've decided to spend up to the "limit" this year they could be way over already.
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11 Oct 2022, 09:09 (Ref:4129854) | #163 | ||
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Being able to spend your way out a budget cap is the least effective way of enforcing rules since Michael Masi was left in charge. |
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11 Oct 2022, 09:24 (Ref:4129856) | #164 | ||
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I think we can bet they have overspent this year. Binotto have been pretty clear on how they have had to stop spending, and the fact that RBR have talked about a new lightweight chassis that have not been revealed is quite telling. While we have seen teams cheat before, I would chalk this one up to the crappy rules writing by the FIA, though. Which still means they have to get the penalties right. |
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11 Oct 2022, 09:30 (Ref:4129857) | #165 | ||
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99% of them are never spotted and 99% of those that are spotted are kept private. |
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11 Oct 2022, 09:36 (Ref:4129858) | #166 | ||
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The interesting question I have is if RB acted in good faith, what is to say they have not done the same this year as well - Seeing it is October it might be difficult to make amends now - so we might have same situation next year as well
Also FIA must be going crazy that they have had breaches in the 1st year of the cap and from the winning team as well - this is not going to be easy Also overspend- of course teams will try to defend overspend on other items - no one will just say it was for performance - so rumours of catering and sick pay is what I expect Also - why did RB not clarify with FIA if how they account can be considered within cap? If you are not sure I am pretty certain you can enquire and get clarification. Or RB tried to push the limits and see what they do when they got caught Seeing that FIA was in touch with the teams about their submissions - and a decision was due last Wednesday - I imagine RB was aware of the breach and use the extra time to justify expenses or find "non performance" reasons for these All in all whilst I find it all amusing it is not good for the sport - also feel for Verstappen(love him or hate him) he has driven brilliantly and now his accomplishments might always come with the caveat of Michael Masi and Overspend and he does not deserve that - he did not make Masi break rule or RB overspend |
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11 Oct 2022, 09:49 (Ref:4129862) | #167 | ||
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Also - slight offtopic but it seems 2021 is coming back to bite FIA and F1
I found the entire fan situation really toxic last year and F1 seem to have been more than happy to milk it for publicity, for the show, for the attention All the build up to the last race - bending rule for 1 lap show finish - allowing fans to be accusatory of each other - publicising team personnel talking bad about their counterparts - and now with the cost cap / Seems it is a bit of their own making Also curiously journalists that are in the f1 paddock seem to be quite constrained on the Budget cap issue just as with AD last year - whilst the most outspoken are the ones that are not in the paddock - makes me wonder if there is some kind of embargo on what journalists can say without losing their paddock credentials. |
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11 Oct 2022, 10:33 (Ref:4129867) | #168 | ||
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Of course everyone is up at the limit, that's how it works if you want to win. That's why it's such a facepalm every time FIA gets involved and looks amateurish. I mean, they should be able to expect it, as we do. |
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11 Oct 2022, 10:37 (Ref:4129868) | #169 | |
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The whole cost cap idea feels badly thought through. If teams can overspend "by mistake" they clearly has not been given good directives.
That being said. Only two teams got noted for not being compliant, so some blame must be laid at their feet. All the others managed, so why not them? |
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11 Oct 2022, 10:51 (Ref:4129869) | #170 | |
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11 Oct 2022, 11:02 (Ref:4129870) | #171 | |
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This isn't what he meant. 2 teams overspent. The third, Williams, complied with the cost cap and did not overspend, but submitted last years documents late. They complied with the spending limits.
Only one team has been deemed to have overspent outside of an actual error, however. |
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11 Oct 2022, 12:49 (Ref:4129887) | #172 | |
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They still might not have overspent though. It's all a matter of interpretation. According to the FIA's understanding of the rules they have gone over. According to Red Bull (via their auditors) they haven't gone over. The next stage, assuming Red Bull don't agree with the FIA, is for it to go to a panel where the majority make a decision and even that can be appealed. It's always the problem with these things. So many grey areas. It's no different to double diffusers in many ways.
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11 Oct 2022, 13:41 (Ref:4129895) | #173 | |
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Yeah, that was what I meant.
The crux of the biscuit is still that most teams managed to not get noted for overspending. Even if RBR manage to make it clear they did stay within the limits, it's still a hot mess that it could even be unclear! If it's that fuzzy, more teams are going to game the system and then we can just forget about it all. I imagine next year it will be a total circus of discussions in courts about many more teams. That's the last thing we need. |
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11 Oct 2022, 13:42 (Ref:4129896) | #174 | ||
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Another theory of mine - I wonder if RB saw a grey area in the accounting - however had they clarified it with FIA then it would have been disclosed to all teams meaning they would lose the theoretical advantage from it.
As such they did not go for clarification and tried to explain it through other costs when the reviews are being made and maybe this is what caught them off . A case of pushing boundaries and hoping it sticks same way one does with technical regulations Now we do not know the actual sum but in my limited knowledge I understand there can be different approaches to accounting techniques - however can these differences make up to 1.8 million as the sum is rumoured. I would understand a few thousand dollars, but almost 2 million? - If true either RB accountants are geniuses or the other teams accountants are not that good |
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11 Oct 2022, 13:52 (Ref:4129897) | #175 | ||
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