[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[ss_collins]

Peugeot just invieled the first running LMP hybrid. Full story to follow but pics on racecar engineering now.
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...-for-2009.html

[deggis]

[CTD]

Love that car!.
The 908Hy is so pretty!

[AU N EGL]

English Version:

http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans..._regl09_gb.pdf


( did not see this posted )

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Only 2 mechanics during tyre changes and tyre warmers are banned

I do not know if I agree with the new pit stop rule or not, yet. It seems pretty clear to me that this is a Peugeot based rule, or more rightly, a coupe based rules equalizer. And there does seem to be an influx of coupes on the horizon so it may very well be a good rule.(?) They equalize fuel time, so why not driver change-over time, by manipulating the tire changing time to afford more time to accomplish the driver change-over?

The warmers???

L.P.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

And another thing, if LMP1 are targetted for 3.42 laptimes in 2011, how slow do they want LMP2 and the GT's? LMP2 were 13.8s slower then LMP1 so they'll end up 3.55-4.00. That's pretty close to the fastest GT2 car of this year (4.00min).

I'm not sure that's exactly what they mean.

I think that on their own a 2011 car would indeed be around 3.42, but with added introduction of energy recovery systems that would bring the cars back upto closer 3:30.

[TRuss]

They say it's to discourage tire changes. Requiring the tire manufacturers to make longer lasting tires. This is supposed to save money because the teams won't need to buy as many tires. That's what I read. Who know's the true motivation?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TRuss

They say it's to discourage tire changes. Requiring the tire manufacturers to make longer lasting tires. This is supposed to save money because the teams won't need to buy as many tires. That's what I read. Who know's the true motivation?

I think that is mostly a smoke screen. Tires on a semi-regular basis have been double and triple stinted already! So the tires can already do the distances.


L.P.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

I'm not sure that's exactly what they mean.

I think that on their own a 2011 car would indeed be around 3.42, but with added introduction of energy recovery systems that would bring the cars back upto closer 3:30.

That could indeed be the case, but if so then they really need to state it more clearly. Guess their is plenty of time till 2011, so I guess all will become clear in due time.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The rear wing is significantly reduced:

Compared to current rules:

40 cm smaller in width and 5 cm in depth.

I'm really against this particular change, it's going to alter the whole look of the cars.

I probably would have settled for the depth reduction, but I really do like the full width aspect of the wings.

[TRuss]

We'll get used to it. I absolutely hated the champhered sides when they first came about. Now I don't even notice them anymore.

[cmk]

My first impression of these rules, without much time spent contemplating them, is that they are almost uniformly nested somewhere between bland and stupid. I can only hope that all this effort on the part of the rulemakers to slow things down will be counterbalanced by technological development to the point where the pace is about equivalent to where it was, if not this year, in 2006. I recognize that ACO-rules prototypes are getting scarily fast, particularly apparent in person at Mosport this year, but I don't want to see a snail parade either.

The hybrid thing really really surprised me. With both Peugeot and Zytek having cars in the late stages of development, I was sure the equivalency work would be done over the winter to allow them to be classified next year. Seriously, no points I could understand, but pretending they are invisible is a slap in the face. I can only hope there is an IMSA exemption to this for Corsa next year. Peugeot can afford to run a technology demonstrator around - privateers can't. Their sponsors and investors need results.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by cmk

My first impression of these rules, without much time spent contemplating them, is that they are almost uniformly nested somewhere between bland and stupid. I can only hope that all this effort on the part of the rulemakers to slow things down will be counterbalanced by technological development to the point where the pace is about equivalent to where it was, if not this year, in 2006. I recognize that ACO-rules prototypes are getting scarily fast, particularly apparent in person at Mosport this year, but I don't want to see a snail parade either.

The hybrid thing really really surprised me. With both Peugeot and Zytek having cars in the late stages of development, I was sure the equivalency work would be done over the winter to allow them to be classified next year. Seriously, no points I could understand, but pretending they are invisible is a slap in the face. I can only hope there is an IMSA exemption to this for Corsa next year. Peugeot can afford to run a technology demonstrator around - privateers can't. Their sponsors and investors need results.

Regarding hybrids, would seem the ACO learned their lesson from the diesels. They blew the equivalency with those now they are simply being super cautious.

[CTD]

Hmm, the new rear wing, wouldn't that improve the top speed, because of the lower down force it produce!?.
And will the mountings change to then?, perhaps the same style as this:

Found on:
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by cmk

M

The hybrid thing really really surprised me.

Why should it surprise you? No one really knows what this kind of engine / motor or power plant can really do?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Regarding hybrids, would seem the ACO learned their lesson from the diesels. They blew the equivalency with those now they are simply being super cautious.

I would agree. This will give them a full year to evaluate the capabilities of the hybrids and then set some rules for them to run under in '10'.

In the ALMS they will probably be running for the "Green" title.


L.P.

[The359]

I do wonder how much of this the ALMS will adopt, especially as LMP1 now has competition and there is no need to have LMP2s fighting at the front anymore.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

I'm not sure that's exactly what they mean.

I think that on their own a 2011 car would indeed be around 3.42, but with added introduction of energy recovery systems that would bring the cars back upto closer 3:30.

I agree, you have to take into account yearly development, a cautious 1 second per year x 3, plus the hybrid system.

That will put them around 3.35 race laps.

It looks as if the ACO are taking engine performance out of the equation, LMP2 size puts them around 550bhp with plenty of development room to spare.

That gives the ACO 100bhp to play with for hybrid systems.

The focus for LMP1 production engines could also switch from 7l GT1 motors to 5.5l GT2, unless the ACO want productione engines in LMP2 only.

[deggis]

"The total power of the electric engines, the storage capacity of energy, and the quantity of energy used over a lap of the circuit, will be defined and controlled."

Despite no exact figures, that does sound pretty close to F1 KERS rules. In F1 2009 regs total amount of energy stored is limited, recovering rate must not exceed a certain limit, maximum power is limited and energy released can not exceed 400kJ in one lap... even Toyota F1 engine chief Luca Marmorini called these rules "primitive" and said Prius already has more advanced technology. Altough FIA is planning to gradually increase the power outputs.

I'd love the idea of "ghost car" (908HY) winning Le Mans. But I guess sandbagging makes more sense.

[deggis]

Comments:

http://translate.google.com/translat...-8&sl=fr&tl=en

[JAG]

I didn't realise the Peueot hybrid system put out 80bhp.

If 2011 P1's are essentially 900kg, 550bhp P2's, with the addition of hybrid systems putting out 80bhp+, that should be pretty exciting.

Especially when you consider they can configer the systems to boost performance, use push to pass, or increase fuel efficiency.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Why should it surprise you? No one really knows what this kind of engine / motor or power plant can really do?

Two reasons. One: this has not stopped the ACO before, with respect to diesels in particular as has already been mentioned. Comments from the Zytek camp and IMSA before this announcement seemed to suggest that any equivalency work would be done over the winter, with an eye to allowing hybrids to score points in 2009. Two: Peugeot is clearly keen on this technology, and imagining the ACO and Peugeot out of step is rather unthinkable. However, with the news that the 908HY project will probably not be fully operational until the 2nd half of 2009 at the earliest, perhaps the cart is leading the horse just as we would suspect.

Horndawg, how can something which is not classified or scoring points win the Green Challenge? This would require an IMSA exemption, something which I suggested could and perhaps should happen in 2009 because the series needs to protect its privateers and their investments to some degree if it wants to be reasonably stable in the future.

[TRuss]

I know I've said this too many times. But hp numbers for electric motors are misleading. That 80hp motor is really producing close to 300+ft lbs of torque at next to no RPM. It could be a huge advantage.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by cmk

Horndawg, how can something which is not classified or scoring points win the Green Challenge? This would require an IMSA exemption, something which I suggested could and perhaps should happen in 2009 because the series needs to protect its privateers and their investments to some degree if it wants to be reasonably stable in the future.

Easily. It is all dependant on what the ALMS decides to do. It would give the 1 team that has announced they wish to run a hybrid a chance to win something without disrupting the regular points chase for the rest of the grid with the unproven technology of the hybrid!


L.P.

[gucom]

Originally Posted by henri pescarolo

Comments:
We know that 10.5% more power and less for diesel will reduce their performance at Le Mans 4 of the second round. It is far from the gap recorded at Le Mans this year. So I hope that after Sebring and Barcelona, the COA will correct still shooting.

sorry but henri pescarolo is a fool... he makes it look as if the entire advantage of the audi and peugeot is down to the more powerful engine and wants to see this entire gap closed by cutting the diesels, but anyone could see that its also chassis, aerodynamics, set-up, possibly faster drivers...