Massa Who? - Page 7

**Bononi** · 22 May 2012, 11:57 (Ref:3077773)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

That's why i'm suggesting Ferrari should replace Massa and not Alonso

Selby

Good suggestion.

Marbot · 22 May 2012, 12:49 (Ref:3077796)

All that Ferrari need is a bit more speed from Alonso's car and then it won't really matter what Massa does in the test/#2 car.

Having said that, even Ferrari must have limits on mediocrity.

Webber to Ferrari!

Jimmy Magnusson · 22 May 2012, 13:42 (Ref:3077820)

Personally I think it would be a mistake to replace him with Perez. Love the bloke and wish him all the best, but he's still developing and Ferrari right now is not the best place to continue doing that. What Ferrari need is a safe pair of hands used to sub-par equipment to collect handfuls of points each weekend - 4th to 8th placings and the like. Put Sutil in the car for the remainder of the year and then bring the replacement in with a full season of testing.

JohnSSC · 22 May 2012, 16:11 (Ref:3077889)

Ferrari have not been the type of team (at least since Michael first arrived) to make sudden and frequent changes to the driver lineup. I would be surprised to see Massa go before the end of the season unless he is being replaced with a quality driver who will get a 2 year deal.

Sutil is interesting, but there is all that past unpleasantness with the legal matters. it would seem that Ferrari have enough to do to make the car competitve without needing to explain their driver choice.

For me, I believe that Massa's lack of production is related to losing the WDC followed closely by the accident in Hungary. He just does not seem as confident as he once was and F1 is a difficult business for those who lack confidence.

wolfhound · 23 May 2012, 09:41 (Ref:3078226)

Autosport has an article on Massa tempory replacements, they vote for Kobayashi short term.

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...rrari-standin/

**Bononi** · 23 May 2012, 12:15 (Ref:3078280)

Massa said in Ferrari's website that nothing changed since his accident, and his troubles are with the car and tyres. He said he made lots of medical tests and everything is ok. What he doesn't say is that he's losing his mind game with a much superior team mate and though he says that the team is behind him, actually he's the second driver for them.
Honestly, I don't want any other driver in his place to get stuck in the same situation. No young promise like Perez should got sucked into this. What is needed is a puppet, a driver that is well minded driver being a second rate driver for that seat.

ECW Dan Selby · 23 May 2012, 12:29 (Ref:3078287)

In that case, Sutil would be a great bet. A guy who feels he has a point to prove, a regular points hauler.

Selby

Hawkwood · 23 May 2012, 13:40 (Ref:3078314)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Honestly, I don't want any other driver in his place to get stuck in the same situation. No young promise like Perez should got sucked into this. What is needed is a puppet, a driver that is well minded driver being a second rate driver for that seat.

I agree with this, it would be awful if Perez were to go there and have the same thing happen to him - it would destroy his career before it's realy got going.

I agree with Selby that Sutil would be the best choice, at least for now. Someone who would just be glad of a seat and wouldn't necessarily view it as long term employment. Heidfeld is another who would be a decent driver until the season's end.

ECW Dan Selby · 23 May 2012, 13:47 (Ref:3078321)

My argument against Heidfield is that he already had his comeback, and got kicked out of that early because he wasn't exactly setting the world on fire.

Not that I expect Sutil to do so, but I think he'll do a better job than both Heidfeld and Massa. I'm pretty sure he'd keep that car in the points most races. He's aggressive, used to the KERS/DRS fun and games, and definitely seemed to develop some sort of maturity over the course of 2011.

Selby

Hawkwood · 23 May 2012, 16:56 (Ref:3078379)

Yes that's true, having been around since '99 Quick Nick can't complain about lack of chances.
I'd prefer Sutil, it'd be good to see how he gets on outside of the FI set-up.

**Bononi** · 23 May 2012, 18:01 (Ref:3078402)

Heidfeld ? Oh my, it's time to move on to better things.

**chunterer** · 23 May 2012, 18:26 (Ref:3078414)

But if Sutil's a driver with a massive point to prove, he's exactly the sort of guy they don't want alongside Alonso!

Not that I think he's good enough anyway, which is beside the point, they need an experienced hand who has a few years under their belt who knows how to be a 'cap doffing' number 2 and just get on with it.

Someone in the mould of a Brundle, Patrese, Berger, DC, Barrichello (although he never admitted that's what he was!) a driver who can act as a good rearguard and then pick up the pieces.

This is something that the 'old' Massa would be more than capable of and certainly this sort of driver Adrian Sutil isn't.

I think Heidfeld got a bum deal last year and would do a bloody good job still. Look at the start of the season he was well competitive, and only went backwards when they stopped engineering his car!

rocketcar · 23 May 2012, 18:54 (Ref:3078431)

Massa has had his chance for the year and should move on. He has not improved and nor has he shown signs of improvement. I would agree with what autosport are saying in that a replacement should not be a driver looking for a long term drive upgrade as I could see the positionwould be short lived for the rest of the season only. Plus like Luca Badoer and Fisi who stood in for massa in a ferarri showed a new driver comming in could still remain significantly off the pace.

chillibowl · 23 May 2012, 19:55 (Ref:3078469)

personally i love the loyalty they are showing Massa.

if he can turn it around and has just one good race in this unusual season the benefit to Maranello is epic. can you imagine the outpouring of love if he can find his way back onto the podium? what if he wins a race? what if he wins at Monza?

loyalty is important. it is why some teams are great even when they are not winning! it certainly doesn't come from planing on how best to come in 2nd in the constructors. you have to take chances to be great and this qualifies. basically this has real life legend potential written all over it...this is why i watch sport and why F1 cannot exist without Ferrari. no one else has the courage to take this chance and no one else with the history to show this kind of loyalty.

currently they are making a hollywood movie about two F1 legends right now...is there anything happening in F1 right now that remotely has even the hint of potential as this does to be considered worthy of being remembered 30 years from now?

Forza Massa!

Razzzor · 23 May 2012, 21:44 (Ref:3078531)

Well if they only want a stand-in for 2012, why not Kovalainen? He's upped his game since McLaren and was never far off Hamilton's pace anyway.

**Bononi** · 23 May 2012, 21:55 (Ref:3078536)

Actually they don't want... we want.

Jimmy Magnusson · 23 May 2012, 21:57 (Ref:3078537)

Kova would certainly work well enough. But I think Sutil really could be the perfect man for the job. Just as Force India did right in replacing him for this year Ferrari would be right in bringing him back. Sutil has the skills, hasn't been out of a car for much time at all and unlike everyone else has a massive chip on his shoulder and a point to prove. You say Ferrari doesn't need that? It's exactly what they need, since Adrian even on his best days won't be as good as Alonso. And if he was he'd fold to team orders because he knows he'd be out of a seat if he didn't - he'd fold in a way that it was obvious he was the better driver. Beating Alonso but not getting the prize! Salo beat Irvine and look what that got him.

The point is Ferrari really needs someone who will be motivated, who will push and won't get flustered or scared if they have a few dodgy weekends. You put Perez into the car and it could take months before his head stops spinning - the one big shot he's got and deathly afraid to screw it up. Heidfeld, Trulli and the likes are past it, the fire isn't there any more. They'd bring the car home but at the moment the Ferrari isn't good enough for that strategy to work. You need people who'll fight tooth and nail week in and week out.

Marbot · 23 May 2012, 22:52 (Ref:3078559)

Autosport has an article (not free) that states Kobayashi might be a good replacement for Massa.

Seems as likely as any other, IMO.

ptclaus98 · 23 May 2012, 23:47 (Ref:3078578)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Kova would certainly work well enough. But I think Sutil really could be the perfect man for the job. Just as Force India did right in replacing him for this year Ferrari would be right in bringing him back. Sutil has the skills, hasn't been out of a car for much time at all and unlike everyone else has a massive chip on his shoulder and a point to prove. You say Ferrari doesn't need that? It's exactly what they need, since Adrian even on his best days won't be as good as Alonso. And if he was he'd fold to team orders because he knows he'd be out of a seat if he didn't - he'd fold in a way that it was obvious he was the better driver. Beating Alonso but not getting the prize! Salo beat Irvine and look what that got him.

The point is Ferrari really needs someone who will be motivated, who will push and won't get flustered or scared if they have a few dodgy weekends. You put Perez into the car and it could take months before his head stops spinning - the one big shot he's got and deathly afraid to screw it up. Heidfeld, Trulli and the likes are past it, the fire isn't there any more. They'd bring the car home but at the moment the Ferrari isn't good enough for that strategy to work. You need people who'll fight tooth and nail week in and week out.

It is absolutely amazing what six months of not being in a car will do for one's reputation. Sutil is a midfield runner. You'd be crazy to get him over the Sauber pair, or bringing in a guy like Hulkenberg or best of all, Mark Webber.

EDIT: Or, Timo Glock.

OZ_HCR32 · 24 May 2012, 03:13 (Ref:3078605)

So, thinking about things a little differently. Massa has been poor at qualifying, but have his races been that bad? Weighing up the stuck in the pack aspect I think his races are not that bad. He just needs to get the thing turned on in quali and start in the top 10.

But, more then Webber last year and a few others. He does still seem to be struggling with the tyres some 18 months after they first started running them. So whether its part tyres, part understeery/Alonso setup, weight distribution of the car....

I still think that if they bring in a replacement for this year he has to be their driver for at least next year. And there is no way Sauber will release any of their drivers etc

Hawkwood · 24 May 2012, 10:19 (Ref:3078741)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

It is absolutely amazing what six months of not being in a car will do for one's reputation. Sutil is a midfield runner. You'd be crazy to get him over the Sauber pair, or bringing in a guy like Hulkenberg or best of all, Mark Webber.

EDIT: Or, Timo Glock.

While that is possibly/probably true, Sutil would be available now, with no real negotiation necessary other than "Adrian, get in the car"

steve_r · 24 May 2012, 10:29 (Ref:3078744)

Quote:

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Massa has been poor at qualifying, but have his races been that bad?

IIRC he was in a top 10 position at the end of the first lap in Spain. Yes, his races have been bad - and not just because of traffic.

Hawkwood · 24 May 2012, 10:43 (Ref:3078755)

'Perez would turn down mid-season switch'
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99800

Seeing as Perez is generally thought to be the odds-on replacement for Massa, this would get the Brazilian to the end of the season surely?
Or could this be a negotiating ploy?

**chunterer** · 24 May 2012, 11:09 (Ref:3078764)

You can be pretty sure if Carlos Slim wanted Perez at Ferrari now instead of in the future he would be going....

**Bononi** · 24 May 2012, 12:50 (Ref:3078801)

Mysteries...

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