[BTCC] How to improve the BTCC 'product'

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I wasn't aware that any BTCC teams were producing TCR cars?

I think that Team Dynamics do, although they are not a current BTCC entrant.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Teams could design their own cars back then. A Team Dynamics Integra on the lift, there is some nice stuff on there: https://www.tegiwaimports.com/blog/?p=3920.

Those rear control arms are very far removed from the simple steel trailing arms of the original car, but they meet the letter of the S2000 rules in terms of pickup points and what not.

BTCC rule makers do not allow this anymore -- however TCR rule makers do, to a point, it's just that the TCR car has to be cheap enough to build to sell at the price cap unless you are willing to make a massive loss (and there's obviously balance-of-performance to reign in any cars that are too fast/too good, so there's no point in doing that).

I wonder why so few BTCC teams are mass-producing TCR cars for sale?! In theory, it should be a lucrative market.

The front subframe looks standard though. It was a pretty crude steel item on DC5s and EP3s (granted they were economy cars so you'd expect that), a far cry from a modern fabricated aluminium subframe that you find on something like an Alfa Romeo Giulia (it's almost like a small section of a typical aluminium spaceframe Ferrari chassis, very fancy!). The abandoned Golf GTI Mk8 TCR race car (seen here on a hoist) was intending to run the aluminium front MQB subframe (from the Audi A3) but with some reinforcement braces welded-in.

Should the BTCC, perhaps, seek to emulate the production-based character of TCR?! With standard pickup points, standard subframes and all those things?

Or do fans essentially not care whether or not the control arm pickup points are within 25mm of the standard road car and whether double wishbone has been substituted in place of the (typically) MacPherson strut front and multi-link rear of most hatchbacks respectively?

Personally, I think the btcc should have embraced TCR in some form. I much prefer their cars to ngtc. The only caveat would be that they should allow RWD in TCR.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I wasn't aware that any BTCC teams were producing TCR cars?

None of them "produce" TCR cars. Some, like Team Dynamics, have "run" TCR cars.

All TCR cars are "produced" ("built" is a far better word) either:

By the manufacturer (CUPRA, Hyundai, Audi Sport etc.) OR

By a manufacturer-nominated builder (e.g., JAS and Cyan Racing) OR

In some cases a sole privately-funded organisation (for example, all Alfa Romeo TCR cars were built by Romeo Ferraris, Tecnodom built the short-lived Fiat Tipo TCR, Vukovic built the Renault Megane TCR, Top Run built the recalcitrant Subaru WRX TCR)

Hence Audi Sport and CUPRA have sold hundreds of TCR cars to customers across the world

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by sceptic

BTCC does have standard subframes.

I mean standard as in the same as the road cars, not standard as in all the same as each other!

BTCC front end:


TCR front end:


The latter is based on the road car using the standard chassis rails and you built up a reinforced version of a standard (i.e., road car) front subframe underneath albeit with fabricated control arms.

To be clear, I'm not saying that BTCC diverging from road cars in this way is necessarily a problem. It's clearly a good ruleset where a diverse range of cars like the Infiniti Q50 and Subaru Levorg have previously been competitive, as well as the likes of a Toyota Avensis and Corolla and so on and so forth. It's straightforward for a private team to homologate nearly any body shape, using the standard subframes and often the TOCA engine and be competitive, which is great.

It would be nice if there were still more cars following the RWD option of course (Alfa Romeo Giulia and so on; I appreciate the Subaru was controversial as the rule makers had not considered that shorter flat-four and V4 engines would have a handling advantage by sitting further back in the chassis than inline-fours!), but oh well.

It would be nice if the numbers for Halford's to sponsor Team Dynamics stacked up in the way it does for NAPA to sponsor Motorbase, but obviously it doesn't anymore, so that's fine and the BTCC still has a full grid.

Originally Posted by SSmith

By a manufacturer-nominated builder (e.g., JAS and Cyan Racing) OR

There's no Ford Focus nominated team, so Motorbase could do that. West Surrey Racing could similarly build all the BMW 128Ti TCRs and so on. WSR could also do a Mini Cooper S 5-door TCR using the same running gear too.

Originally Posted by SSmith

Hence Audi Sport and CUPRA have sold hundreds of TCR cars to customers across the world

As you say it is a lucrative market, where you can potentially sell not just the minimum run of 10 cars but hundreds of cars even!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

As you say it is a lucrative market, where you can potentially sell not just the minimum run of 10 cars but hundreds of cars even!

It's been a lucrative market for the like of Audi, Hyundai and JAS, where the cars are either built by the manufacturer themselves or by a third party with very close ties to the manufacturer.

For most of the private efforts - Fiat Tipo, Renault Megane, Subaru WRX, Ford Focus, Opel Astra - it's been far from lucrative.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

There's no Ford Focus nominated team, so Motorbase could do that. West Surrey Racing could similarly build all the BMW 128Ti TCRs and so on. WSR could also do a Mini Cooper S 5-door TCR using the same running gear too.

They would need some level of manufacturer approval and/or support. BMW have previously indicated that they have no interest in TCR.

Anyhow, I feel we are getting very much off topic now. The title is 'How to improve the BTCC', and I'm not sure that have a couple of teams make cars for rival series does anything to address that.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by SSmith

None of them "produce" TCR cars. Some, like Team Dynamics, have "run" TCR cars.

I know. I was being sarcastic which didn't come over well I guess.

[crmalcolm]

One of the challenges with improving the product, is that others will think it makes things worse.

Allow the cream to rise to the top, people complain it's boring.
Implement measures to mix up results, people complain it is artificial.

[thetool]

But at the moment you maybe have the worst of both. It's a common complaint that it's been boring for the last couple of seasons, and that it's artificial because there's all sorts of undisclosed schenanigans with technical waivers behind the scenes.

It doesn't help that TOCA are very strict on keeping the technical bulletins and the information held within confidential, to the point where I don't think the general audience would even be aware of their existence. The way the BTCC is run these days makes it easy to harbour conspiracy theories.

[billy bleach]

What behind the scenes shenanigans? Where is the proof of this? Conspiracy theories indeed

[thetool]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What behind the scenes shenanigans? Where is the proof of this? Conspiracy theories indeed

www.tocatechnical.co.uk

There's a reason you need a login. Of course most of the content is just boring logistics stuff, but not all of it.

[rdjones]

Sorry to pull up an old topic.

I was at Donington yesterday and it was my first visit to a BTCC round in around 10 years, having being a regular between 2003 and 2009. I have some observation from yesterday (and the championship and TOCA package as a whole).

I really think the championship is missing a big rivalry in the same way as the Plato/Neal everyone is very nice to each another and from what I can tell there is no needle between any of the drivers.

I think the growth of the "super teams" is damaging the championship. We had 20 cars on the grid yesterday of which 11 where run by 3 teams. Maybe there needs to be limit of 3 cars per team?

As for the cars they look the business but the racing is very processional (that not say there where some good over taking I am thinking of Turkington move in race 2 at the Old Harpin).

The general paddock didn't have the same buzz around it as it used it all felt very flat. I also noticed that around of half the paddock was taken up with personal motorhomes rather than teams running cars in the support races. I am not sure if that is post Covid thing or cost saving it thing but it was an interesting observation.

As for the support races I have to say I enjoyed the Mini's and Porsche Sprint Challange. The Carrera Cup was a dull as ever and the F4's where again very processional. I think that they where missing a support race maybe another single seater championship..???

I had a look at the new TOCA Junior car and I am still not sure about it looks very dated with a blank sheet of paper I am sure they could have come up with something that looks more modern. One think I notice there was no mention of in the program as that would have been a good way to introduce the new championship to the wider public who may not follow things as some. I guess only time will tell how that will pan out.

Overall I had a good day and it was interesting to see how things have developed and changed (It was my first visit to Donington in about 15 years and I was really impressed with how the circuit look and you can tell that MSV have but some investment into the circuit and the facilities).

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by rdjones

I think the growth of the "super teams" is damaging the championship. We had 20 cars on the grid yesterday of which 11 where run by 3 teams. Maybe there needs to be limit of 3 cars per team?

Stating the obvious, but if you took 1 off each of the 4 car entries we’d be down to only 17 cars. I’d agree if we had a dozen or more different teams like a decade ago or there were several new ones being denied entry, but surely as things stand it can only be a good thing to have these extra entries from the top-level teams. Not criticising, but I’d be interested to know why you think there are too many.

I agree that the Caymans were pretty decent yesterday (at least as good as you’re going to get with them, it’ll never be like Ginetta Juniors) and the grid looks great. Carrera Cup just seems to run on for hours, maybe because they usually have the two live Sunday races and the other supports tend to only get one.

Presumably being TOCA’s own series, they’d want to give the new Juniors a couple of races on the Sunday next year - so something will have to give. I imagine they’ll been keen to keep the Legends at a few rounds and hopefully we’ll see the Classic Touring Cars again once or twice. I assume the Radicals and Caterhams will make way, but maybe one of the two Porsche championships will have to go as well.

[pimmy]

I'm surprised about the comments about Carrera Cup. The races yesterday were much closer and more competitive than they usually are, even Hosking managed to say on the lead lap (which is remarkable since he was on the verge of going 3 laps down at the finish of race 1 at Thruxton).

The package is really missing another saloon type series. Hopefully enough people will be able to justify the cost of TOCA Juniors to make it worth watching.

[S griffin]

It would be good to see more teams again and more variety of cars like we used to. Nothing wrong with teams running four cars, but they could afford to lose one so another team could come along. A grid of 24 seems reasonable to me

[tee.1s]

Originally Posted by rdjones

Sorry to pull up an old topic.

I was at Donington yesterday and it was my first visit to a BTCC round in around 10 years, having being a regular between 2003 and 2009. I have some observation from yesterday (and the championship and TOCA package as a whole).

I really think the championship is missing a big rivalry in the same way as the Plato/Neal everyone is very nice to each another and from what I can tell there is no needle between any of the drivers.

I think the growth of the "super teams" is damaging the championship. We had 20 cars on the grid yesterday of which 11 where run by 3 teams. Maybe there needs to be limit of 3 cars per team?

As for the cars they look the business but the racing is very processional (that not say there where some good over taking I am thinking of Turkington move in race 2 at the Old Harpin).

The general paddock didn't have the same buzz around it as it used it all felt very flat. I also noticed that around of half the paddock was taken up with personal motorhomes rather than teams running cars in the support races. I am not sure if that is post Covid thing or cost saving it thing but it was an interesting observation.

As for the support races I have to say I enjoyed the Mini's and Porsche Sprint Challange. The Carrera Cup was a dull as ever and the F4's where again very processional. I think that they where missing a support race maybe another single seater championship..???

I had a look at the new TOCA Junior car and I am still not sure about it looks very dated with a blank sheet of paper I am sure they could have come up with something that looks more modern. One think I notice there was no mention of in the program as that would have been a good way to introduce the new championship to the wider public who may not follow things as some. I guess only time will tell how that will pan out.

Overall I had a good day and it was interesting to see how things have developed and changed (It was my first visit to Donington in about 15 years and I was really impressed with how the circuit look and you can tell that MSV have but some investment into the circuit and the facilities).

I feel like the rivalries aspect is the same as with many other sports. The younger generation of athletes tend to be a lot more amicable amongst one another, and more tight-lipped, less inclined to throw a job at opposition

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by rdjones

Sorry to pull up an old topic.



I was at Donington yesterday and it was my first visit to a BTCC round in around 10 years, having being a regular between 2003 and 2009. I have some observation from yesterday (and the championship and TOCA package as a whole).



I really think the championship is missing a big rivalry in the same way as the Plato/Neal everyone is very nice to each another and from what I can tell there is no needle between any of the drivers.



I think the growth of the "super teams" is damaging the championship. We had 20 cars on the grid yesterday of which 11 where run by 3 teams. Maybe there needs to be limit of 3 cars per team?



As for the cars they look the business but the racing is very processional (that not say there where some good over taking I am thinking of Turkington move in race 2 at the Old Harpin).



The general paddock didn't have the same buzz around it as it used it all felt very flat. I also noticed that around of half the paddock was taken up with personal motorhomes rather than teams running cars in the support races. I am not sure if that is post Covid thing or cost saving it thing but it was an interesting observation.



As for the support races I have to say I enjoyed the Mini's and Porsche Sprint Challange. The Carrera Cup was a dull as ever and the F4's where again very processional. I think that they where missing a support race maybe another single seater championship..???



I had a look at the new TOCA Junior car and I am still not sure about it looks very dated with a blank sheet of paper I am sure they could have come up with something that looks more modern. One think I notice there was no mention of in the program as that would have been a good way to introduce the new championship to the wider public who may not follow things as some. I guess only time will tell how that will pan out.



Overall I had a good day and it was interesting to see how things have developed and changed (It was my first visit to Donington in about 15 years and I was really impressed with how the circuit look and you can tell that MSV have but some investment into the circuit and the facilities).

Agreed on TOCA Junior, I don't know how anyone with a blank sheet could come up with a car, that looks like a Toyota Starlet oval racer of 30 years ago and then add in a dated engine and ludicrous manual gearbox, really? No young racer will ever encounter a manual gearbox in their career unless they go straight from TOCA to the Goodwood Revival.

Horrendous purchase price as well. The whole thing looks poorly thought out to me.

Sent from my SM-T736B using Tapatalk

[MarcusH26]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It would be good to see more teams again and more variety of cars like we used to. Nothing wrong with teams running four cars, but they could afford to lose one so another team could come along. A grid of 24 seems reasonable to me

I hope the expressions of interest in 2 new teams for next season works out. I still have my doubts about it in terms of there being much interest unless we get major new regulations rules too that kind of safeguard that too?

25 with 2 new teams and WSR back to 4 cars would be a nice grid to aim for I think.

[Sodemo]

I think one of my fav support series was the Vectra V6 Challenge, however the series never got the grid numbers of say the Fiestas or the Clios. Not sure why the V6 series didn’t take off, maybe they were more costly than the other tin top supports of the late 90s, I’ve no idea?

[SV8Predator]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Horrendous purchase price as well. The whole thing looks poorly thought out to me.

Luckily for TOCA, it's got nothing to do with you, and won't affect you.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by SV8Predator

Luckily for TOCA, it's got nothing to do with you, and won't affect you.

You like it?

We have to wait and see but what we know so far it isn't looking great.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by MarcusH26

I hope the expressions of interest in 2 new teams for next season works out. I still have my doubts about it in terms of there being much interest unless we get major new regulations rules too that kind of safeguard that too?

25 with 2 new teams and WSR back to 4 cars would be a nice grid to aim for I think.

Fingers crossed it happens. It was good to have Restart entering this year. Be nice if more new teams could be encouraged to enter

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Fingers crossed it happens. It was good to have Restart entering this year. Be nice if more new teams could be encouraged to enter

Isn't it the final year of the current rules? Make it tough to find investors maybe?

[coffinpilot]

Two new teams to boost the grid?
How do we know the teams on the grid right now are solid for next year.
I'm not saying that any of them are in danger, I, and almost all of the fans wouldn't know if they were or were not.

But three years ago if someone had said heading to the end of 2022 that Dynamics and Ciceley were on the chopping block, and BTC would last one more season, there would have been laughs aplenty. Somebody posting that would have been chased away as being nuts.

Just because there's 20 cars on the grid now doesn't mean they'll all carry over does it?

As for big teams running four cars, it's not as if those three teams are dominating the top 12 every meeting is it? They're all as present at the back or middle of the grid as at the front.

As for drivers having needle, it's just in a different way I think. It seems to me that in most sports the prevalence of sports psychology has taught athletes to be able to compartmentalise negatives and turn them around, hence why 'banter' between heavyweights in boxing just comes across as childish scripting and isn't believable. I read David Addison in Motorsport News and thought to myself that's just a load of ********. If it develops naturally then fine, but considering how the drivers have to cling on to every sponsor these days, compared to in the past when Neal/Plato or X Super Touring rivalries were flaring up it was good news for the plethora of replacable sponsors, not so much today in my opinion.

Of course I'm probably wrong. We'll end up with 24 solid cars and a few punch ups in 2025.......

[thetool]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Isn't it the final year of the current rules? Make it tough to find investors maybe?

No, 2026 is the last year of current commitment to NGTC, as well as the TV deal and tyre contracts. But even come 2027 the current expectation is evolution rather than revolution, with any changes being limited to adapting existing machinery rather than needing whole new kit.

[Sodemo]

Would switching to TCR based hardware offer a better budget scenario for teams?