Attendance and TV Ratings so Far

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm interested as well...

Bout 7,000 sounds like a pretty good figure for staff, track personnel and other workers allowed in the gat to do whatever functions are needed to run an event...


They may be there, but they are not watching or paying to get in...


We don't count the staff and members of the Orchestra in our attendance...they have to be there to make the event happen...

If they count them, they are padding numbers...even if it is only 7,000 people....

[mountainstar]

The pics are very, very easy to find.

50,000 on Saturday that's damn good.

[Phoenix1]

My feeling is that the series as a whole is getting it right however I would like to see a visual change to the cars. Either sidepods (expensive and major I presume) or at least the front nose just so it does not look it did 10 years ago. I can guess a F1 year from a car shape but not the latest champcar. To much change is bad but maybe a little could go along way?

[Electrocuted]

Originally Posted by Snrub

Can you post a source on the top 3 figures, I haven't seen any thing on it? You say 7000 is a verified number, where is this verified? I don't have a problem with all the stuff you've posted, but you've been very short on the details of how and where you gather the info in your posts. eg. If you're using a picture, please show us the picture and explain your methodology.

Hey Snrub,,,, congrats on the new job........

The 7,000 is verified from someone at SJ. I'd rather not say who. I wont get info from any other track so let me say right now any further discussions of numbers is a calculated conclusion. Might say a fairly reasonable GUESS.

The 22,000 grandstand seats was in at least 2 newspaper articles. It was early in the announcement phase, or late last year, with a 22,000 QUOTE. And another story that ran with a QUOTE saying changing seats around wouldnt effect the 22,000 seats. Sorry, I dont have the links, and am not normally so hung up on disproving higher announced attendance that I save links. Someone else can back me up, I know people saw the 22,000 a few times...

The 10,000 GA was a calculated estimated GUESS. Based on similar events vs seating capacity. Take it for what it's worth. Although, to invoke thought and reasoning,, if there were large groups of many thousands or tens of thousand of GA people,,, wouldnt there be at least ONE photo showing that? At least ONE photo someone took and posted, be it on CCWS .com or one of the fans that post pics in gallery's for others to see?? The only photo's I've ever seen is under 1,000 people in any one GA shot.

Hey guys, most everyone knows the announced numbers dont stack up. I'll admit the numbers I post are not 100% correct. But I stand firm and I'll bet a beverage of choice they are within 5% or so of actual numbers. At this forum I DO NOT want to get into disagreements, or turn every topic into D&G or call managemnt "liers." I'll keep my thoughts short without biased or flaming words and sometimes post what I think the numbers are,,,, you guys can consider it for discussion or toss it out.

And BigDaddy, you'll never have to edit any of my, few, posts again.

[GBoehm]

Well is name is Macdaddy so u may want to edit that one first.

[macdaddy]

Gordon Kirby:

San Jose was a roaring success attracting more than 153,000 paying spectators over the three-day weekend as the Champ Car World Series exceeded one million paying spectators for the first half of the 2005 season.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Electrocuted

Hey Snrub,,,, congrats on the new job........

The 7,000 is verified from someone at SJ. I'd rather not say who. I wont get info from any other track so let me say right now any further discussions of numbers is a calculated conclusion. Might say a fairly reasonable GUESS.

The 22,000 grandstand seats was in at least 2 newspaper articles. It was early in the announcement phase, or late last year, with a 22,000 QUOTE. And another story that ran with a QUOTE saying changing seats around wouldnt effect the 22,000 seats. Sorry, I dont have the links, and am not normally so hung up on disproving higher announced attendance that I save links. Someone else can back me up, I know people saw the 22,000 a few times...

The 10,000 GA was a calculated estimated GUESS. Based on similar events vs seating capacity. Take it for what it's worth. Although, to invoke thought and reasoning,, if there were large groups of many thousands or tens of thousand of GA people,,, wouldnt there be at least ONE photo showing that? At least ONE photo someone took and posted, be it on CCWS .com or one of the fans that post pics in gallery's for others to see?? The only photo's I've ever seen is under 1,000 people in any one GA shot.

Hey guys, most everyone knows the announced numbers dont stack up. I'll admit the numbers I post are not 100% correct. But I stand firm and I'll bet a beverage of choice they are within 5% or so of actual numbers. At this forum I DO NOT want to get into disagreements, or turn every topic into D&G or call managemnt "liers." I'll keep my thoughts short without biased or flaming words and sometimes post what I think the numbers are,,,, you guys can consider it for discussion or toss it out.

And BigDaddy, you'll never have to edit any of my, few, posts again.

Thank you, as you have admitted yourself, you have no evidence that attendance has been lied about other than your wild guesses and 4th person testimonials. As I've said before, BRING SOME HARD EVIDENCE TO THE TABLE TO CONTRADICT THE REPORTED NUMBERS.

You only see less than 1000 people in one photograph? Well of course, what do you want, satellite photos!

[indycool]

I saw at another forum where someone did some math, then I checked the math and found it to be correct.

The track was 1 1/2 miles in length. Based on two feet per person, to get 40,000 GAs (of the 62,000 announced and 22,000 seats), you would hafta have them five deep on both sides of the track around every inch of the WHOLE circuit.

Like Electrocuted, I am skeptical that this took place.

[Snrub]

Here's a minimum of what I'd like to see:
* Recent info that indicates that there were 22k worth of grandstand seating and that nothing was added.

[JohnSSC]

I emailed the Taylor Woodrow Grand Prix of San Jose and the admin assistant to the VP and General Manager confirmed that the Grandstand seating available this year was "roughly 22 thousand."

She also stated that they are looking to add more for next season.

I hope this is sufficient confirmation, if anyone wants to they can pm me and I can give the email address as verification - I did not want to post the individual's name without permission - but she is on staff there.

They have a pretty nice website, by the way!

[Snrub]

I think your word is good here John.

I don't get why they cook the numbers, it just doesn't make sense. If the real number was say 35k or 40k, that's nothing to be ashamed of for a new event. Anyone looking at the event in detail would figure it out.

[Amar7605]

Perhaps that 40k figure includes grandstands and box/club seating? You know - those special corporate booths?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I think your word is good here John.

I don't get why they cook the numbers, it just doesn't make sense. If the real number was say 35k or 40k, that's nothing to be ashamed of for a new event. Anyone looking at the event in detail would figure it out.

That has been the major point of contention in this thread.....and the point that Electrocuted has raised, only to be blasted for daring to look at it and to make that point.

Why inflate the numbers when the crowd looked like a good crowd anyway????

When someone eventually does figure it out, all it does is hurt your credibility...

[JohnSSC]

Looking at the track map on the website, I think it would be difficult to figure 18,000 for the hospitality suites known as the Paddock Club and the Pit Lane suites. These are located along the Pit Lane and the Paddock (obviously!). the Paddock Club is for groups up to 50 and the Pit Lane Clubs are divided into groups of either up to 50 or up to 25.

Tim, you might be better able to eyeball this and from the description the Paddock Club is apparently a grandstand type arrangement, but my guess would be that these couls accomodate 2,500 persons over and above what is held in the grandstand seating itself.

[JohnSSC]

Let me revise the number I estimated - I went back to the website and it looks like there are 50 Paddock Club Suites holding 50 each (2,500), then 50 Pit Lane suites holding 50 each (2,500) and 25 Pit Lane Suites holding 25 each (625) so that would make the total (providing all were fully booked) 5,625.

So hospitality plus Grandstand would be about 28,000.

[mountainstar]

I have no reason to doubt the San Jose numbers. As I saw today in Denver, everyone is not exactly watching the track at the same time and there is a huge mob of people circulating around constantly.

[Amar7605]

So that means that in San Jose approx. 28,000 people paid for seats, while the rest were wandering around the track?

[JohnSSC]

Amar7605, since the seating is all that I could actually verify then (I think) 28,000 is a good number.

The difficulty with hospitality suites is that just because a company buys one (revenue is always a good thing) that does not mean that there will automatically be 50 people filling it. These tickets are often give to vendors for the particular company in appreciation for the relationship. They are then distributed to people who may/may not actually show up. My thing here is that it is all paid for upfront so there is no real loss of revenue to the promoter.

My only experience with this has been with the Cleveland Airshow. Besides being a great event, they have many hospitality suites as well. Looking around during the 2004 event, I saw a number of empty seats in these areas. Now some I am sure were folks who chose not to see the Show. A good number (like me and my family) only sat in their seats during some of the programs spending the rest of our time milling around among the exhibits/general admission areas/displays. I am sure the same happens at any street race.

[Amar7605]

With any event that has people wandering around and not actually sitting, the only way to judge attendance is with turnstiles at the entrances counting the number of people entering.

But the thing is that CC races don't have these. I don't remember any at Long Beach, Fontana, or Las Vegas. So, all that can be reported is ticket sales regardless if people show up or not.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The difficulty with hospitality suites is that just because a company buys one (revenue is always a good thing) that does not mean that there will automatically be 50 people filling it. These tickets are often give to vendors for the particular company in appreciation for the relationship. They are then distributed to people who may/may not actually show up. My thing here is that it is all paid for upfront so there is no real loss of revenue to the promoter.

More importantly, it really doesn't matter once the boxes are sold as to whether there are bums in seats. What matters is whether the company feels it got return on its cost. VIP treatment of customers is entirely separate from the race itself (think that's not true? How many hockey games have VIP suites full even though hockey has become dreadful for actual fans to watch?). It's entirely about the image. So there's no point in discounting them from a fan standpoint, because the real fan isn't the attendee, it's the purchaser.

[Amar7605]

After reading the numerous posts regarding attendance at some of the recent races, I've come to two thoughts:

1) Attendance at the races has been pretty good, but...
2) Is good attendance blossoming to new fans?

For the short-term its great that places like Edmonton and San Jose are sucessful. But the thing that I wonder is that sucessful venues requires a loyal fan base going to the races. So, long-term, are these races and other new venues going to be able to retain and gain race fans? I guess time will tell.

[indycool]

A Centrix exec estimated Race Day at Denver as 75,000. Poster at another forum calculated around 20,000 seats. That means 55,000 -- FIFTY-FIVE THOUSAND -- in GAs. Color me skeptical.

[mountainstar]

I've been to Denver Broncos games, sold out since 1983, both the old and new stadium seating about 76,000. If they announce 75,000, I'd believe it. The grandstand I was in was filled, the centrix hospitality area across from my grandstand was packed. During the race from the top of the grandstand I could see all the way back to the Pepsi center, over towards the pits, to the paddock, to one of the ped bridges and it was shoulder to shoulder with people, DURING THE RACE. On Saturday afternoon, when I was in the paddock for an hour and a half there were thousands in there alone.

I said to one of my friends, "Hey I thought this was a dead series?". Obviously not. Anyone that attended Denver could clearly see this is now one of the big yearly events in Colorado.

[Flatspot]

As a follow up to indycools post I think that the reserved seat number is quite close to correct. I saw 7 sections with 21 rows and 18 seats per row = 21,168 seats. That does not include what I saw to be around 5,000 seats in either corporate grandstands (primarily unattended by Centrix employees bet the Coors stand was full) and then there were the corporate suites that could accomodate maybe another 3,000. I didn't pay attention to how full they were. As such I think that the total attendance number is optimistic but I do have to say that I have never seen so many GA attendees at a race. As Mountainstar attests from my seat I could see that in many of the GA areas people were 4-5 deep during Champ Car.

As a follow up to indycools post I think that the reserved seat number is quite close to correct. I saw 7 sections with 21 rows and 18 seats per row = 21,168 seats. That does not include what I saw to be around 5,000 seats in either corporate grandstands for employees and then there were the corporate suites for the salesmen and guests that could accomodate maybe another 3,000. I didn't pay attention to how full they were. During the Atlantic race they looked pretty empty to me. As such I think that the total attendance number is optimistic but I do have to say that I have never seen so many GA attendees at a race. From my seat I could see that in many of the GA areas people were 4-5 deep during Champ Car.

The other thing that was noticeably improved over last year and 2 years ago was the amount of sponsor signage around the track. The last couple of years have been scary to see the lack of support but I can guarantee that things are on the upswing.

[Snrub]

The Centrix exec's "estimate" doesn't really mean anything. I haven't heard any official announcments of crowds or TV ratings.

Regarding the sponsorship, I started a thread a while ago about all of the things that Centrix has done to improve the race. It's neat to see it happen.