Gen 3 progress

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Yes, that was how it went down I believe - but there were other options (one of which is doing the engines now) with WAY more experience at this level than poor old Robbie Herrod. Whomever at Ford threw him the "hospital pass" on this one really made a very ordinary decision, which impacted Ford teams right through the whole season and I image can't have helped Robbie's blood pressure nor his business' reputation.

Not the only dud decision on Ford's part with those engines - they forced the original throttle body against protests from the locals.

Their vocal complaints about parity very much trying to shine the torch elsewhere.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

But I thought it was impossible to paritise two different mechanical configurations of engine….

Bring on the rotaries!

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

But I thought it was impossible to paritise two different mechanical configurations of engine….

My understanding is that they haven't got parity, DJR has now been told that the engine is too strong and to bring it back a bit.

"Ford’s big Supercars engine omen
The parties involved in redeveloping the Ford Supercars engine have already been instructed to slow it down, such is its potency, Speedcafe has learned."

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bluesport

My understanding is that they haven't got parity, DJR has now been told that the engine is too strong and to bring it back a bit.

So exactly how have they come to this decision and how does parity for motors get defined or is it parity for the whole package. If a new entrant came in using a turbo V6 or 4 cylinder how would parity be achieved, who would do it and how long would it take? If the series is to be expanded those are the questions and I bet no one has the answers and if the answers don't exist the series is effectively dead but I may be a bit pessimistic on that point.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Casper

So exactly how have they come to this decision and how does parity for motors get defined or is it parity for the whole package. If a new entrant came in using a turbo V6 or 4 cylinder how would parity be achieved, who would do it and how long would it take? If the series is to be expanded those are the questions and I bet no one has the answers and if the answers don't exist the series is effectively dead but I may be a bit pessimistic on that point.

Very good points that you make and I know that I don't have the answers.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

So exactly how have they come to this decision and how does parity for motors get defined or is it parity for the whole package. If a new entrant came in using a turbo V6 or 4 cylinder how would parity be achieved, who would do it and how long would it take?

Obviously they were planning to use the standard dynameter at Craigsted and simply match power and torque curves using retarded ignition timing, VCT (or even limiting maximum throttle opening), but they have now realised that is insufficient.

They came to this conclusion via the torque sensor apparently, even though the updated engine meets the requirements to the letter on the Craigsted dyno (some clues as to the advantages the Chevrolet may have had in 2023?).

Prsumably the updated Coyote engine has more lightweight parts to improve transient response as well as using VCT to improve performance and/or response at various points & throttle positions in the rev range, despite producing the same torque and power curve on a full throttle run on the standard dynameter.

Concerningly, there might be little motivation to ensure entrants with rotaries or turbo engines have perfect parity.

[dirtymacca]

Surely this is arse about.
I would think you would get engine parity first and then fine tune race pace parity with air tunnel testeg?... I am confused
I am happy to be educated.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by dirtymacca

Surely this is arse about.
I would think you would get engine parity first and then fine tune race pace parity with air tunnel testeg?... I am confused
I am happy to be educated.

Did they realise the only way to get parity was aero as the motor wasn't going to do it without regulation changes to suit the 4 valve. The more I think about this year the more I think that the series is on life support due to a number of factors but mainly poor management and no apparent long term planning. I'm glad I have no skin in the game, no interest from Chev and the Camaro gone, dwindling interest from Ford and the Mustang has a limited future anyway especially now the Camaro has left the market place.

[bluesport]

Courtney lauds new Ford Supercars engine

https://speedcafe.com/courtney-lauds...ercars-engine/

[bluesport]

Bathurst engine test.

https://speedcafe.com/supercars-to-c...hurst-12-hour/

[TWRv12]

It's a worry that the engine issue hasn't been put to bed yet...


Also, on that issue, in hindsight wasn't it a bit two faced of the Ford teams to whine so much last year when they knew their engine shop wasn't good enough?

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

It's a worry that the engine issue hasn't been put to bed yet...


Also, on that issue, in hindsight wasn't it a bit two faced of the Ford teams to whine so much last year when they knew their engine shop wasn't good enough?

It's not relevant how good their engine shop is - it's a parity series. It's Supercars responsibility to ensure any and all body types and engines are "paritised".

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Compromised

It's not relevant how good their engine shop is - it's a parity series. It's Supercars responsibility to ensure any and all body types and engines are "paritised".

Generally I agree with this but if the engine shop doesn't know how to make the needed improvements, or ends up completely lost and can't find its way, then the engine shop issues get very relevant.

I also think of all those wasted hours, expensive time, angst and of course impact on competition that could have been avoided with a "fit for purpose" engine shop from the outset.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

It's a worry that the engine issue hasn't been put to bed yet...


Also, on that issue, in hindsight wasn't it a bit two faced of the Ford teams to whine so much last year when they knew their engine shop wasn't good enough?

With hindsight I think supercars needed to update their engine parity processes to paritise dissimilar engines, previously both makes were running 5 litre engines so it was relatively easy, but now technology such as transient dynos need to be utilised.......hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Tourer

I also think of all those wasted hours, expensive time, angst and of course impact on competition that could have been avoided with a "fit for purpose" engine shop from the outset.

Or Supercars/Craigsted could have put a counterweighted flywheel on the LS to make the inertias match, instead of the lightweight jobby the LS/LT engines were permitted to use (for some reason)?

The 5.4 Coyote, even in Herrod form, always had the potential to make 30hp more if it wasn't detuned by Mr. Hasted... It was making 30hp more in the MARC car installation for testing.

The M-Sport 5.4 parts (like presumably a lighter crankshaft) were likely not available back then and have only recently become available as part of the GT3 program.

Much more expense to DJR than simply putting lead slugs in the LT engine flywheel from the off!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Also, on that issue, in hindsight wasn't it a bit two faced of the Ford teams to whine so much last year when they knew their engine shop wasn't good enough?

Everyone has a view but trying to get two motors two perform equally when both use totally different architecture and using the same archaic rule set that favours the pushrod motor could be viewed as biased I would think and SC in their wisdom ignored the problem totally choosing instead to try the easy way out using aero.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

Also, on that issue, in hindsight wasn't it a bit two faced of the Ford teams to whine so much last year when they knew their engine shop wasn't good enough?

The engine produced 30hp in MARC car testing more than it was allowed to make in V8 Supercars... That suggests it was not deficient on power.

Did the Chevrolet have the same margin available despite being a larger capacity?

The Ford variant was also more reliable than the Chevrolet which saw numerous failures during the season...

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Everyone has a view but trying to get two motors two perform equally when both use totally different architecture and using the same archaic rule set that favours the pushrod motor could be viewed as biased I would think and SC in their wisdom ignored the problem totally choosing instead to try the easy way out using aero.

You keep repeating this as if it's fact but Volvo did a fine job and the HWA motor Erebus had built wasn't bad either

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You keep repeating this as if it's fact but Volvo did a fine job and the HWA motor Erebus had built wasn't bad either

It didn't even have eight throttles until SBR/Erebus made one themselves for it to replace the twin throttles supplied by HWA...

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

You keep repeating this as if it's fact but Volvo did a fine job and the HWA motor Erebus had built wasn't bad either

The facts don't suit your agenda but then we all have a different view on things. Most fans of SC are not conversant with the technical side of the category and the four valve Ford is a glaring example of this with fans not knowing the whole story blaming all sorts of reasons for the inequality between the two drive lines.

[Umai Naa]

It's General Motors, pacing back and forth in his war room, declaring that the F-F-F-Fordies can't win.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

It's General Motors, pacing back and forth in his war room, declaring that the F-F-F-Fordies can't win.

As is always the case, the yellow (nee red) will resource their teams accordingly, establish a common area of target, and go hard.

While the Ford squads talk with different voices for the most part, and seem to be solving problems independently of one another

[Mixer]

DJR almost exactly like ARG in this instance.

If you can't acknowledge your own shortcomings and instead blame other people for your lack of results in order to save face, you cannot progress past that which is the cause of your issues.

[bluesport]

Honestly it's hard to believe that some of you blokes can write such crap.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

DJR almost exactly like ARG in this instance.

If you can't acknowledge your own shortcomings and instead blame other people for your lack of results in order to save face, you cannot progress past that which is the cause of your issues.

As I said everyone has an agenda and ignore the stuff that does not fit in that agenda. I must admit I am a motor racing fan and participant and don't see it that way.