[WEC] Kolles Prototype

[Adam43]

The problem was more that it might suddenly be nearer 1000hp! Hence Glickenhaus’s situation. And they reacted to this! And the Vanwall was the latest one to join. Long after it was known 700 was needed. Two years after the regs started and two years after the first BoP tables with 520kW came out.

Maybe Kolles always run their engines too hot then, or install them poorly, based on all their previous failures?

700hp in LMP1 (BR1 R13 2018).

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Adam, did you notice the same with your MGB too? I had this with my 67 'Vette 427 in full FIA trim and still have a Capri 3.0 V6 Essex and the T at the exit of the heads was fixed by the engine builder as well. Works with a simple Miata too. Hence an oil rad is very helpful but again you must feed it with fresh air.

Yes, fitted an oil radiator. And had a bigger air intake at the front - it was nicely done too (I didn’t do it), takes air from down below where the bumper would be too). So good I was worried it was reading too cool!

Needed double fans when not moving though.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

700hp in LMP1 (BR1 R13 2018).

I see. Thanks. Edit myself: not only you have to feed the rads with fresh air but more likely extract hot air. We had many discussions about this re cars racing at LM, where the straight was so long, it was short tail vs long tail. The last one having the reputation to lead to overheating issues.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes, fitted an oil radiator. And had a bigger air intake at the front - it was nicely done too (I didn’t do it), takes air from down below where the bumper would be too). So good I was worried it was reading too cool! Needed double fans when not moving though.

Racing Miata, double fans and oil rad mandatory and keep the thermostat. Corvette 427 and Capri 3.0 the same. I dont say anymore what my Capri water gauge reads everybody laughing at. But it works fine. With the Corvette sometimes we removed the thermostat but it was mandatory to have a restrictor plate to slow the flow down. Additional electric pump or booster are not allowed. No I say this, I remember the sames issues with a Mosler. Only the use of a BCool rad solved our problems.

[Steve McQ]

Sure, but we don't know if they have engine cooling issue. They have brakes cooling issue for sure, but it is not related. And the car was not fast enough at Spa where the ambiant temperature was too cool for tire confort but ideal for engine temps.

[Gerard C]

A two-stroke race engine does not work properly above the 60° Celsius mark. I was asked to go not above the 80°/82° C on the Capri but working hard we did better. Much better. Of course, the use of a pre-heating system is almost required. But with an iron block, once its hot you keep the T high during the whole weekend!

[Gerard C]

Engines of the last generation use a double pump, oil and coolant, a very high pressure and rather low quantity of coolant. Its the case with the Pugs. Having a race car tested during winter time does not help tho… Mojave desert is better!

[veeten]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Engines of the last generation use a double pump, oil and coolant, a very high pressure and rather low quantity of coolant. Its the case with the Pugs. Having a race car tested during winter time does not help tho… Mojave desert is better!

Willow Springs.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by veeten

Willow Springs.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

I see. Thanks.

To be fair this is just a number from wiki! As I suspect the 670 reference was. Both references a DSC or S365 article.

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Sure, but we don't know if they have engine cooling issue.

Sure, but we don’t know the Gibson isn’t capable of 700+hp!

Never claimed it was anything but speculation. As is all of this. For me it seems very likely the Gibson can do this no problem. And if it can’t it begs the question why Kolles went with the engine.

As I think it capable of 700hp and that is why Kolles chose it, I am speculating why it is only 670hp. The two best suggestions so far are installation issues or old engine.

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by Adam43

To be fair this is just a number from wiki!

OK, because the AER P60B was closer to 720 bhp unrestricted at that time, and has direct fuel injection. That's why the LMP1 Equivalence of Technology (OMG it is so painful to remember this ****) gave some weight penalty (something like 15 or 20kg) to the turbocharged cars.

[Gerard C]

What BB said in '22 about testing in hot weather conditions (Germany!):"La chaleur a été très appréciée. Nous savons désormais que nos systèmes de refroidissement fonctionnent bien. Nous devrions être bien équipés pour des conditions comme celles rencontrées a Bahreïn ou a Austin." Adding:"On a fait notre boulot et construit la voiture. Je ne pense pas que l'on doive se cacher par rapport aux autres, que ce soit Toyota, Peugeot ou Porsche. Je sais que l'on a un bon produit."Source:https://fr.motorsport.com/wec/news/b...aise/10341974/

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

OK, because the AER P60B was closer to 720 bhp unrestricted at that time, and has direct fuel injection. That's why the LMP1 Equivalence of Technology (OMG it is so painful to remember this ****) gave some weight penalty (something like 15 or 20kg) to the turbocharged cars.

Yes. Same wiki page!

Are you suggesting Kolles should have gone with the AER?

[Steve McQ]

Nope, just that the AER platform was more modern a few years back. Like I wrote a few posts earlier, I am confident the Gibson machine is able of 700bhp but probably in a too narrow window for the moment to be used correctly in race by the Vanwall in its current form. Evolutions needed, on both sides. A car is a package, one component never holds 100% of the responsibility. But that goes the other way around : every part of the package should be evaluated pragmatically.

BTW, if it was me leading a hypercar team, my car would be running a 800bhp Judd-AIM V10, spectators trackside would love us for this !

[Adam43]

If your speculation is correct, like I wrote before they made a bad decision going wit the Gibson! Or are you suggesting Gibson promised to work on the engine? Who’s funding that?

A Judd in it would be lovely. Although, of course, it would be 700hp.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Are you suggesting Kolles should have gone with the AER?

Most likely should have stayed with the VRX30A, it took them lots of work to fit new engine in their chassis with absolutely zero benefits, same non-existent reliability as before, both in LMP1 and LMH form.

[Mike E]

Kolles will be familiar with the Gibson from running it in their last LMP1 chassis. The engine is available and relatively simple. Presumably it is available on a lease basis from Gibson, like it's little brother GK428. So it's appealing from that point of view.
In LMP1 days it apparently made about 660-670bhp according to this Rebellion story in Racecar Engineering
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...ical-analysis/

As the only naturally aspirated, non-hybrid engine in the class, where it will surely be falling short is torque. Not such an issue in an 830kg LMP1. Rather less ideal in a 1030kg lard bucket Hypercar.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Mike E

In LMP1 days it apparently made about 660-670bhp according to this Rebellion story in Racecar Engineering

That was before 2019 Le Mans engine upgrade and EoT breaks for privateers so closer to 700 hp for sure.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Kolles will be familiar with the Gibson from running it in their last LMP1 chassis. The engine is available and relatively simple. Presumably it is available on a lease basis from Gibson, like it's little brother GK428. So it's appealing from that point of view.
In LMP1 days it apparently made about 660-670bhp according to this Rebellion story in Racecar Engineering
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...ical-analysis/

Being simple easy and cheap probably was a driving force. Have they chosen that over performance?

As the only naturally aspirated, non-hybrid engine in the class, where it will surely be falling short is torque. Not such an issue in an 830kg LMP1. Rather less ideal in a 1030kg lard bucket Hypercar.

I guess these engines won’t struggle to meet the power curve outlined in the rules. NA or turbo.
It’ll have the same power output through the rev range as the hybrids. By rule.
So, assuming the rev range is the same the torque will be the same though the rev range too.

And if it can’t do that, why did they go with it!?

The advantage of the hybrid is not more torque, but efficiency and with some clever trickery you can change optimize the dynamics of the car through th power delivery. Even if your hybrid is RWD.

[Gerard C]

Engine or not, cooling system or not, aero pack or not they offered a poor show. They entered a WORLD championship, did they?

[skycafe]

So, cooling issues, and brake cooling issues-seems to point to ducting not being well designed.

Lack of power production starts to make you think they are not effectively ducting intake air...

[veeten]

When you think about it, Kolles is in the same situation as Glickenhaus. You have an engine that was engineered for a racing formula that is several years behind. You can possibly say that most of the manufacturers are running previous designs, but they chose to make upgrades to them, such as turbo charging, as for those like Ferrari, they are using a racing version of what they have in their road cars.
The situation with Gibson and Pico is what happened to AER, Judd, Zytec and others during the mid- to late 2000's. They fell behind when it came to making new engines to satisfy what was coming ahead. And with the move away from LMP1 towards LMH, the non-hybrids were left with the two left, mainly due to cost. This season, we are seeing the results of that choice.

[veeten]

Remember, Glickenhaus nearly had a supply deal with Alfa Romeo before it fell through, and had to settle for Pico.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by veeten

Remember, Glickenhaus nearly had a supply deal with Alfa Romeo before it fell through, and had to settle for Pico.

Who can produce an engine that produces 520kW.

All through this, with the whole Aston Martin debacle, Glickenhaus made sure they got an engine that could do the job.

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Engine or not, cooling system or not, aero pack or not they offered a poor show. They entered a WORLD championship, did they?

Harsh, but yes.

I hope there is, but I can’t think of a reason this engine is down on power which doesn’t reflect bad on them. And that’s not considering the brake cooling, the Villeneuve fun, …

Still, they are there which is more than, say, Aston. And only 3% off the pace. Which, historically, is actually quite close. Except at the moment all the other teams are less than half this.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by veeten

Remember, Glickenhaus nearly had a supply deal with Alfa Romeo before it fell through, and had to settle for Pico.

I would take a Pipo over an Alfa any day of the week